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Subject: Resolving Trade Disputes rss

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Matthew M Monin
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Here are some formal guidelines to follow when you feel you have been the victim of a bad trader/seller/buyer:

Step 1 - Try to resolve the situation privately. This means more than sending a threatening email and waiting a couple hours for a response. See if some agreement can be made in private that will resolve the situation to the satisfaction of both parties.

Step 2 - Try step 1 again. If you feel like you've given the other person every chance in the world, please consider giving them the benefit of the doubt with one more chance just to make sure.

Step 3 - Contact an admin. I'll suggest that you contact me, as I don't want to volunteer others for this responsibility without their okay, but I'm sure any admin would be willing to help. Provide the admin with as many details as possible, including links where appropirate and forwarding the email discussions resulting from Steps 1 and 2.

Step 4 - Recognize that you may not get your due. Though admins can sometimes help resolve situations through intervention, if someone is completely unwilling to cooperate there is little we can do to make them. We can, however lock users out of accessing features like the trade manager and the marketplace so if we determine that someone has abused the system we can prevent them from doing any more business on BGG until they resolve their issues.

What we would like to NOT see is users going public with their grievances in the forums. These things sometimes turn out to be simple misunderstandings and making a public scene benefits nobody in such circumstances. Handle it in private or bring in an admin - please don't take it to the forums.

Thanks.

-MMM
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Steffan O'Sullivan
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Octavian wrote:
What we would like to NOT see is users going public with their grievances. These things sometimes turn out to be simple misunderstandings and making a public scene benefits nobody in such circumstances. Handle it in private or bring in an admin - please don't take it to the forums.

I have to disagree with this approach. I see that the old DEADBEATS/SLACKER TRADERS list is gone - I'm very sorry. That was an extremely useful list which I would check before trading.

Not only that, I had posted the whole sordid story of the one time I was ripped-off there - I don't have it in any other form. Is all that gone now? Is there any way to get at least my posts so I can, as you suggest, bring it to an admin?

Thanks,
-Steffan
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Matthew M Monin
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If users follow the above suggestions there shouldn't be a need for a similar list as any abusers of the system won't be able to trade in the first place.

As for the old list, it unfortunately was the source of some administrative headaches and is gone entirely. However I believe someone in a thread about the deadbeat trader list posted a link to a google cached copy of the page so you might be able to retrieve your story from there.

-MMM
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Mike Gingold
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Octavian wrote:
If users follow the above suggestions there shouldn't be a need for a similar list as any abusers of the system won't be able to trade in the first place.

As for the old list, it unfortunately was the source of some administrative headaches and is gone entirely. However I believe someone in a thread about the deadbeat trader list posted a link to a google cached copy of the page so you might be able to retrieve your story from there.

-MMM


Why won't abusers be able to trade?
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Mark crane
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A version of the deadbeats list can be found using archive.org.

If you check my posting history there's a link somewhere.

 
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Steve Willson
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Octavian wrote:
As for the old list, it unfortunately was the source of some administrative headaches and is gone entirely.


I'm curious to know how this system of admins resolving issues on a case-by-case basis will be less of a headache. I rather liked the idea of a self-policing community, it never seemed abusive. Also, it was often pointed out on that list when a user was found to have multiple accounts; will the admins be watching for this?

Mikeg99 wrote:
Why won't abusers be able to trade?


I assume offending users wouldn't be able to access the trade functions. What happens when a user contacts a trade abuser? Would there be some sort of notice if someone contacts a blocked/banned trader? "Warning: this user is currently suspended from trading." Wouldn't that effectively make the issue public all the same?

Further more, the trade feedback makes these instances public as well, although I've yet to actually see any negative feedback, I'm always looking just in-case. What if the offending trader starts contacting users via personal messages?

I might be willing to give a "bad" trader a second chance, provided they agreed to ship first, and wait for my game to be shipped there after.
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Steffan O'Sullivan
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craniac wrote:
A version of the deadbeats list can be found using archive.org.

If you check my posting history there's a link somewhere.

Unfortunately, they have nothing more recent than last February - my posts were August and September.
 
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Mike Gingold
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Ryhesling wrote:
Octavian wrote:
As for the old list, it unfortunately was the source of some administrative headaches and is gone entirely.


I assume offending users wouldn't be able to access the trade functions. What happens when a user contacts a trade abuser? Would there be some sort of notice if someone contacts a blocked/banned trader? "Warning: this user is currently suspended from trading." Wouldn't that effectively make the issue public all the same?



If a person is banned from trading by an Admin, why wouldn't they just make another account? I really do not see how this is a useful solution to not posting a bad trader list.
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Mike Gingold
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The bad trader list included people that had created new accounts.
 
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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Octavian wrote:
Here are some formal guidelines to follow when you feel you have been the victim of a bad trader/seller/buyer:
Step 1 - Try to resolve the situation privately.
Step 2 Try step 1 again.
Step 3 - Contact an admin.
Step 4 - Recognize that you may not get your due.


I gotta agree with a couple of the previous posters. The only real result of these rules is Step 4.

I followed steps 1-3 before I created the original Deadbeat/Slacker Traders List. I created it to express some of my frustration, but also to call out the person who screwed me over, and to provide a public way to track users who tried to trade in public or private after screwing someone over.

It would be easy (and stupid) to equate game trading with more serious crimes. However, I could see the loss of some large collection or particularly rare game be worth pursuing through legal action. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the fact that BGG enables trades with a dedicated mechanism makes it MORE difficult for the site to say that it didn't help a thief commit the crime.

Your guidelines don't help much. They don't keep bad traders from trading. They just keep bad traders from using the trade mechanism with their current BGG userID. Can these users still use Geekmail? They might contact BGG users privately with trade inquiries. Can you keep them from viewing the trade forums and trade Geeklists, so they can't farm the names of people trying to trade items?

You don't want to see users going public with their grievances, but you can't keep people from registering new userIDs either. How about an official Hall of Shame, with initials, zip codes, and userIDs? There's legal precedent for those sorts of lists in the real world. In some cases, with a heckuva lot more detail.

I'm not advocating that a first offense or a kneejerk reaction put someone on a blacklist -- the original D/STL had a 1-month and a 3-month no-response policy before pinning people to the list. You've got steps 1-3 in place, and you're willing to ban people from trading. What keeps you from taking the next step and posting their userIDs, zipcodes, and surnames publicly? After all, you're allegedly performing due diligence.

If Steps 1-4 are the official stance of BGG, I would like to understand why you've made this decision. The rationale isn't apparent to me.

I do understand that you can't stop all bad trading. But you don't have to protect the bad traders either.

For anyone interested, I have PDF and html versions of the original Geeklist from the archived version. I'm also still maintaining the D/STL as best as I can. In addition to reporting bad traders to the admins, feel free to report them to me as well, along with your justification for posting them to the "list," such as it is. It'll be a little more difficult for me to perform my own due diligence regarding your complaints, but I'll do my best.
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robin goblin
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Yup this is a really bad decision by the admins....the list was a very good thing...thanks for doing your best rumble!

Robin
 
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Matthew M Monin
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rumble wrote:

Your guidelines don't help much. They don't keep bad traders from trading. They just keep bad traders from using the trade mechanism with their current BGG userID. Can these users still use Geekmail? They might contact BGG users privately with trade inquiries.


As mentioned, making new IDs will always be a workaround for any system you try to use. If you suspect someone of creating a new account let an admin know and we can investigate it.

As for making trade inquiries through Geekmail, just request that they send the trade through the trade manager once terms are agreed to. If they balk you can be suspicious.

-MMM
 
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Mike Gingold
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Just because they balk does not mean they are a bad trader. I think this new system is silly. I see no reason why a bad trader list has to be removed from the server.
 
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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Based on information I received regarding recent legal rulings, and considerable musings/effort, the Deadbeat/Slackers! geeklist lives again.

Please read the Entry Guidelines carefully.

Permanency is no longer guaranteed, and I will delete posts mercilessly if they don't follow posting guidelines.

Best of luck in all your trade dealings.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/17839
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Michael Leuchtenburg
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Once bad traders are identified, the requisite information to identify them should be posted publicly. This is *at least* surname and zipcode, but preferably would include more information: street address, or at least the street. This is especially important in more densely populated areas and for people with relatively common surnames.

Any system to help people avoid making bad trades must include this to help prevent bad traders from working around restrictions by just creating a new ID. Banning is well and good - but it's far from the end.
 
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Li'l Ronnie Post
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New user IDs are a dime a dozen, but shipping addresses are harder to come by.

If the admins want to police this issue themselves, perhaps there'd be a way for them to automate tracking of shipping addresses associated with bad traders.

Upside: Should be relatively easy to automate on a simple basis. Helps relieve legitimate legal concerns* by maintaining control of personal information.

Downside: Harder to automate on a less simple basis (e.g. - catching variants on the same shipping address).

It wouldn't stop the more determined bad traders, but then not much shy of my favorite Uzi really will. There is some value in deterring the lazier ones.. and, IMNSHO, there seems to be a high correlation between "lazy" and "bad", at least regarding commerce.



*Picture an innocent parties personal information being published by accident in a fit of pique. Once it's released into the wild, it's out there and there is no going back. It's a legitimate concern.
 
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Jim Chaney
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Ok, I have read this (old, but important enough to still be pinned to the top of the Trade forum) post and am now somewhat confused as to the state of things.

Is the grievance procedure still the same 5 years later, or has this all fallen by the wayside? Is the trade system thereby 'safe' or could I really be sending $100's of games into the void when I agree to a trade? I understand that bgg takes no cut of a trade, but 3% of a sale, I can't help but think they are required to do more than provide a shoulder to cry on if it all goes wrong...

Or I could be completely wrong blush
 
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M. Shanmugasundaram
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I have no official voice, but I can opine.

The grievance procedure remains unchanged.

BGG takes their cut from the seller because the seller wouldn't have found their sale except that BGG existed. I find this pretty reasonable, except where the buyer stiffs the seller. You can always report such events to the mods and get the situation (and your balance owed) rectified.

For people you've never traded with, CLICK THROUGH their trade ratings and scan them all for variety of users and any neutrals or negatives. (Even I have a neutral!)

For better or worse, I tend to ask 0-rating folks to send first. ALWAYS with delivery confirmation of some kind.

It leaves a slightly distasteful experience for some first time traders (Y U NO TRUST ME? :*( ), but it gets easier. Plus, it reduces my chance of sending umpty-doodles of stuff and getting nothing back.

For trades, if condition, requirements, constraints are important to me, I make sure I get a full understanding of them BEFORE any formal proposal is made or accepted.

Some countries are tougher to handle than others. I've personally had multiple items vanish on their way to South and Central America. Probably a hex of some kind. I shy away from those trades any more, even though I think I've had one successful one to Brazil.

I do try to keep my buddy (my personal "do not trade" personages) list up to date, but my information is only as good as what other share with me via the DS/T geeklist.
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Matthew M Monin
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rumble's sums things up well. All transactions through the site are at your own risk, so you should participate only as much as you are comfortable with. That said, we do our best to get disputes resolved when they come up and to cut-off users from using the systems if they aren't following through on their commitments. Someone who has been cut-off cannot access the Trade Manager or the Marketplace at all, so as long as you use them you can at least be confident that the person you're dealing with hasn't been found untrustworthy in the past.

-MMM
 
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