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Subject: Why no Game ID for Ingenious Puzzles? rss

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Jonathan Takagi
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I'm curious why the moderators have decided to not give Ingenious Puzzles (Einfach Genial Knobelspass) a game ID. Eric Burgess (on Boardgame Babylon) said that he had submitted the title, but that it was declined, since it's not a game.

I've noticed that "puzzle" is an official category of the BGG database, though perhaps that is only because they are competitive puzzles (like Ricochet Robot) and not solitary ones. Is that correct? Also, there are other Knizia-related items in the database that are not games (the books Dice Games Properly Explained and the magazine Der Knizia Almanach, though I guess the book does contain potential games in it, like Sackson's A Gamut of Games). I can see how including puzzles would introduce a pretty slippery slope, but because it's a Knizia and related to a top 50 game on BGG, it would be nice for it to have its own entry in the database.
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Christian T. Petersen
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It is, in fact, a game.

Although it can be played solitaire as a sudoku-like puzzle, the game is played with multiple players "racing" to finish their puzzle fastest.

Hopefully somone will see this!

Thanks!

Christian
FFG
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W. Eric Martin
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By chance, I posted a preview of Einfach Genial Knobelspass on Boardgame News today: http://www.boardgamenews.com/index.php/boardgamenews/comment...

You'll need to supply your own pieces to try out the puzzles pictured, but the preview should give you a good taste of the game.

Eric
Editor, www.BoardgameNews.com
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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jtakagi wrote:
I'm curious why the moderators have decided to not give Ingenious Puzzles (Einfach Genial Knobelspass) a game ID. Eric Burgess (on Boardgame Babylon) said that he had submitted the title, but that it was declined, since it's not a game.


I'm told that Knizia described it as `Not a game' in LA a few weeks ago.

Quote:
I've noticed that "puzzle" is an official category of the BGG database, though perhaps that is only because they are competitive puzzles (like Ricochet Robot) and not solitary ones. Is that correct?


That's what I believe to be the case. There wouldn't be any player interaction in this game if several people tried to solve it simultaneously. You would also need a copy of Ingenious: Puzzles for every player.

Quote:
Also, there are other Knizia-related items in the database that are not games (the books Dice Games Properly Explained and the magazine Der Knizia Almanach, though I guess the book does contain potential games in it, like Sackson's A Gamut of Games).


The book contains lots of games, some of them original. Only a few of the games have their own entries.

Quote:
I can see how including puzzles would introduce a pretty slippery slope, but because it's a Knizia and related to a top 50 game on BGG, it would be nice for it to have its own entry in the database.


I agree. I can't log my two plays from the examples on BGN. Perhaps if it were added as an expansion then it would be okay, but it comes with its own tiles so it doesn't need a base game.

You can solve them with paper and pencil if you make a triangular table of possible pieces. No guessing required. The 2-star puzzle was quite good.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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The description on Boardgame News makes it seem at least as much a game as is Ubongo or Take It Easy.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Psauberer wrote:
The description on Boardgame News makes it seem at least as much a game as is Ubongo or Take It Easy.


Ubongo features player-interaction when collecting gems. The optimal strategy for Take It Easy requires you to look at what other players have done. (One play might maximize your expected score but ensure that for any sequence of tiles you will score worse than one other player. Another play might give you a definitely lower score yet a 50% chance of winning.)

Similarly, in Boggle shared words are worth nothing so if there are three or more players there can be interesting interactions with words that are `so easy to get that they shouldn't be written down'.

All of these games support multiple players without buy more copies.
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E.R. Burgess
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mlvanbie wrote:
Psauberer wrote:
The description on Boardgame News makes it seem at least as much a game as is Ubongo or Take It Easy.


Ubongo features player-interaction when collecting gems. The optimal strategy for Take It Easy requires you to look at what other players have done. (One play might maximize your expected score but ensure that for any sequence of tiles you will score worse than one other player. Another play might give you a definitely lower score yet a 50% chance of winning.)

Similarly, in Boggle shared words are worth nothing so if there are three or more players there can be interesting interactions with words that are `so easy to get that they shouldn't be written down'.

All of these games support multiple players without buy more copies.


These are dicey definitions here. By this rationale, most cooperative games like Lord of the Rings are also not games but 'puzzles' because the players are not competing - they are working together to 'beat' the game. Yes, there are random elements and there is no assurance that you will 'beat' the game (which you presumably would do with even 5 star Ingenious Puzzles...again, presumably) but just because there is a common goal doesn't rule out the activity as a 'game' (even if Reiner does, technically).

Besides, you could easily use the Ingenious Puzzles package to play competitively without two copies. Give everyone a puzzle of the same difficulty and see which one of you solves it first - and you have a winner.

But that's beside the point, really. Reiner doesn't call it a 'game' but that doesn't mean BGG.com should pretend it doesn't exist. There are plenty of "Not-A-Game" entries on BGG.com. Klaus Teuber's book is another example (I don't think there are any games in there, but it is about games). The make-or-break criteria in this case should be "would a boardgamegeek come to the site expecting to find a listing for this item?"

I think the simple answer is 'yes' and that is rationale enough to list it and not think that would be a slippery slope to a gazillion puzzles of calico kittens and the cathedral at Chartres being suddenly submitted for inclusion just because Ravensburger foisted them on the world and also does designer games. I'm sure people would enjoy the chance to see a lot of the photos I took of Reiner showing off Ingenious Puzzles (which I'd gladly upload if there was an entry) and trade knowledge about this cool product.

Okay, end Saturday night rant. I need another hard apple cider so I can finish editing another podcast.

...Sheylon
www.boardgamebabylon.com (Volume 32 has the Ingenious Puzzles intro)

P.S. Thanks for bringing this up, Jonathan.

P.P.S. Christian - does this mean you'll be bringing it to us in the US? Hope so!
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