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Prague: The Empty Triumph» Forums » Rules

Subject: Slope hexsides and LOS rss

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Ralf Northman
Sweden
Stockholm
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Hi!

Ripped off the plastic from my copy of Prague today and set up the small infantry scenario. Marvelous components!

Last sentence in Prague Battle Rules 6.3a has me perplexed. It says:

"Slopes will block Line of Sight unless the target is in an adjacent hex, or the firing unit is on the same elevation or higher than the defender (see Series Rule 12.6 and Prague Rule 6.4)."

So lets look at the nontrivial case of nonadjacent firer and target. LOS is blocked unless firing unit is on the same elevation or higher than the defender. That is: LOS is blocked by slopes if firer is at a lower elevation than defender, but if the defender would fire back later in the same circumstances the LOS would be clear! Strange!

This can't be what is intended by the rule, can it? It would make more sense to me if the rule said something like: slope hexsides only block Line of Sight when firer and defender are nonadjacent and on the same elevation level.

Would be grateful for a clarification. Thanks!

Cheers!

Ralf Northman

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Paul Borchers
United States
Keller
Texas
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Ralf, discussion on slopes and this particular rule has come up on CSW as well, in just the last week.

Line of Sight is always reciprocal in BAR. I want to post a bit more on CSW about the wording of that sentence, but if you go there via this link you can see a diagram that will clarify what the intent of the rules are.

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.ee6d079/17522
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Ralf Northman
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Stockholm
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Thank you for your quick answer, Paul!

I think much of my confusion comes from thinking of elevation in Prague 6.3a in terms of the elevation levels due to the contour lines as described in Prague 6.4.

I have another, related, question. I use Hanks picture from CSW for illustration.



If the unit in W4247 would move to W4346 the unit in W4349 would still be unable to see it. But if it moved again to W4345 would it come in to view due to BAR 12.6c?

The question is if the "different elevations" mentioned in BAR 12.6c is strictly elevation levels or the more fuzzy elevation concept that comes up when only Slopes are involved?

To make matters worse, I think I have too much ASL in my brain, because my gut feeling tells me that there is no LOS between W4349 and W4148 because the later is behind the "layer cake step" of the Slope (despite my awareness of BAR 12.6b). It's even harder for me to accept that the LOS goes from clear to blocked when the unit backs away from the slope into W4048. I can't visualize a plausible landscape geometry that does that, but maybe I'm just tired...

Also, as a contrast, I think the elevation level rules with crests and hilltops are really good and intuitive. And I wouldn't bother writing all this if I weren't passionate about the game.

Cheers and sorry for the rant!

Ralf Northman
 
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Hank Burkhalter
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Duluth
Georgia
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Heres my present two cent for Prauge Slopes (other BAR games may treat them different). One issue Ive seen is the use of the word Elevation. In Prauge Slopes do not impart Elevation, contour lines do.

Slopes are mentioned only in passing in the series rule book (pg15). Slopes are detailed in the Prague playbook and TEM chart. Per the TEC only a Village, Farm, and Woods block LOS, not Slopes. One may be able to see over a Village, Farm, or Woods if the elevations are right per BAR 12.6c (and vice/versa). Prague slopes have no effect on LOS traced between units on different elevations (well.. except for (d) there, note (b), thats the idea).

But Slopes do effect/block same Elevation LOS if at different 'levels', thats what Prague 6.3a was trying to get at.

Quote:
But if it moved again to W4345 would it come in to view due to BAR 12.6c?


My understanding is No. BAR 12.6c is about different Elevations and in (c) all four units are on the same Elevation with some at different 'levels', and when all are on the same Elevation, this is where Slopes can come in to block LOS.
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Tom Cundiff
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St. Bernice
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Probably my major gripe concerning BAR ... and LaBataille for that matter, is the failure to properly provide a visual identification of hexes that are indeed higher in elevation. This single failure creates unnecessary confusion in the minds of wargamers grown used to such designations (different background hex colors for different elevations)dating as far back as 1964's Stalingrad and its Mountain Hexes. Visual indoctrination over more than 50 years of wargaming creates a "mind set" (if you will) that confuses players (me I know) who are used to seeing elevation represented by different colored hexes. Seeing slopes that do not lead to different elevations just doesn't compute in my mind, and I believe in the minds of a good number of wargamers. I suspect this causes some players to buy a single LaBataille or BAR game and say to themselves, "what pretty maps" and then fold them away, never read the rules, never play them ... and never again buy more games in the series.
 
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Hank Burkhalter
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Duluth
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I enjoy and appreciate the BAR maps and find them quite pleasing. For Prague specifically, the Elevation of a unit I find easy enough to determine, note also there is a subtle -darker light- green to aid on the Crest of an Elevation. The issue of sorts is the wording of Prague 6.3a which led me to no understanding of how slopes affect LOS, but luckily BAR has outstanding player/developer/designer support on CSW that has given me for now the idea I do understand how slopes affect LOS.
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