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fightcitymayor
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http://reason.com/blog/2016/07/20/the-rncs-make-america-work...

Beautiful article that points out how far off the rails the Republican Party really is.

Reason wrote:
No jobs plans, little economic policy at a night devoted to jobs and the economy.

The second night of the Republican National Convention was supposed to be built around the theme of "Make America Work Again." In other words, after Monday night's speeches built around immigration and national security ("Make America Safe Again") this was the night that Republicans were going to focus on jobs and the economy.

But the primetime speeches last night featured essentially nothing in the way of plans to create jobs or grow the economy. Several of the speeches failed to mention jobs or the economy at all. Instead, they focused on trashing Trump's Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton, who they portrayed as criminal and possibly a worshipper of Satan. In doing so, they offered further evidence that the Republican party has totally given up on even the pretense of engagement with domestic policy.

...

You can blame Trump, an unusually vacuous and unserious candidate, for some of this. But this tendency existed in Republican party politics existed long before before Trump arrived. The GOP has spent the last decade and half stubbornly refusing to engage with the basics of domestic policy, even on issues its members purport to prioritize, preferring Reaganite-mantras and anti-Obama slogans instead. Last night was proof that the GOP has wholly embraced a post-policy approach to politics, ceding the space entirely to Democratic opponents. We're all worse off for it.
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Christopher Yaure
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From a getting elected standpoint, the Republicans are taking th right approach. The only thing the party of the Snake Oil Salesman, Ryan, Carson, and Giuliani can agree on is "Obama bad, Clinton worse". If they try to engage on economic policy, the only thing that will result is a clear demonstration of how far apart they are. And when a party eschews compromise, differences cannot be resolved.

Clinton and Sanders are far apart on many economic issues as well, but they managed to reach some common ground. The side-by-sides of M. Trump's and M. Obama's speeches were entertaining; side-by-sides of the conventions will be incredibly revealing.
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In memorium. Bob Hoover died 25 Oct 2016 at 94. In WWII he was shot down in a Spitfire and stole an FW-190 to escape. He spent decades at air shows flying Ole Yeller, shown
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Trump has said that he's going to bring steel and manufacturing jobs back to the US, but that's going down the same road as when Obama said you could keep your current private insurance under ACA. ACA didn't take away that insurance, but it didn't prohibit a private company in a free market from taking it away.

Similarly, steel could be brought back to the US. We lost steel because out foundries were build for WWII and were less efficient that the Japanese foundries built decades later to serve the Japanese auto industry. But, it would either have to be heavily subsidized or it would have to be at least as efficient as competing Japanese and Chinese mills or the free market is just going to ignore it. "Efficient" means "fewer employees" (if anyone hasn't been paying attention). And, steel now has a lot of competition: aluminum, carbon-fiber, plastics.... Look at a car from the 1960s: steel frame, steel body, steel dash, steel trim, all assembled by autoworkers. Now? No frame (unibody), often aluminum body (with plastic noses and tails), plastic dash, plastic trim, mostly assembled by robots.

The same applies to manufacturing, though a lot of rust belt manufacturing loses have been from Southern states racing to the bottom to give manufacturers better deals. Self-inflicted wounds.

But, physical jobs and routine mental jobs are going to continue to go away. If we try to fight it, we just make ourselves uncompetitive. This has been going on for over a century, but we're getting to the point where structural unemployment is going to have to be dealt with. I really don't see any desire to deal with the problem in the GOP. Sure, they want to bitch about it--they love their bitching--but I don't see them doing anything. It would be change, and they're against change for the most part.

They are talking about re-instituting Glass–Steagall regulations (that keep banks, investment houses, and insurance companies separate), but somehow I think that's probably because Clinton has managed to get the banks on her side.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
The same applies to manufacturing, though a lot of rust belt manufacturing loses have been from Southern states racing to the bottom to give manufacturers better deals. Self-inflicted wounds.


The same is actually already happening to manufacturing; American manufacturing has grown quite a bit in the past decade as companies which outsourced to China have returned. The problem is they don't bring back the jobs; they're returning because it's cheaper for them to run a highly automated factory in the United States than it is to run a labor-intensive one in China.
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Really? As the semi-official voice of libertarian America, I thought Reason was a big proponent of "post-policy politics," by which government policy primarily consists of tax cuts followed by more tax cuts. Perhaps they're really upset because convention speakers were so busy lambasting Hillary that they forgot their usual promises to slash the top marginal rate and end the corporate income tax.

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Sean Conroy
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Despite the off message speeches, the biggest stimulus to the economy would be the planned tax rate reductions for both personal income and business income. The socialists seek to tax the snot out businesses and expect them to just pay up. Instead, they are all shocked and outraged when they find ways around high taxes by moving out of the US. Hopefully a reduction of these taxes will encourage businesses to come back to the US.

Overall a FAR better plan than anything Barry O or Hill/Bill can come up with.

P.S. To expect the US government to create private sector jobs is folly.
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Wendell
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Honestly the best stimulus to the economy would be hiring construction companies to do much needed infrastructure work on a big scale.

Two reasons. 1) because it's needed and it is better and long-run cheaper to do maintenance and repair on bridges than it is to fish them out of the rivers and do emergency fixes.

2) because real interest rates are vanishingly low, even negative, so it would be a CHEAP time to do it.

Won't happen, though.
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wifwendell wrote:
Honestly the best stimulus to the economy would be hiring construction companies to do much needed infrastructure work on a big scale.

Two reasons. 1) because it's needed and it is better and long-run cheaper to do maintenance and repair on bridges than it is to fish them out of the rivers and do emergency fixes.

2) because real interest rates are vanishingly low, even negative, so it would be a CHEAP time to do it.

Won't happen, though.
Wikipedia

Yes, though I hate road construction as much as the next person, who doesn't actually do and profit from road construction.

(1) and (2): It is not just cheap to do it now, it's profitable. As you say, interest rates are negative (interest is less that inflation) so China and others are paying us to borrow their money! If we just put it into stocks, we'd depress stock prices, but if we put it into infrastructure, we improve US productivity for a century. As long as you're making more than the interest, it is impossible to lose money or get into financial difficulty no matter how much you borrow. (The US borrows at a fixed interest rate: it cannot change.)

Someone thinks not? You do not know your US History. Hoover Dam was built in the 1930s along with a huge number of infrastructure projects. In the northern part of the US, these projects are starting to fail and need replacement, after more than 80 years. In the Southwest, Hoover Dam and other projects are still paying dividends in the form of American productivity, and appear to have many more decades to go.

The Dwight D. Eisenhower* (Republican) National System of Interstate and Defense Highways was started in the late 1950s. Where would we be without it? How would I, in California, be able to get free shipping from CSI, in Florida? How would anything get anywhere?

Won't happen? Won't happen under Trump. It doesn't serve his interests. His businesses aren't directly about infrastructure. Clinton? Might happen: infrastructure is now in the Democratic wheelhouse (obviously, it used to belong to the Republicans, from Lincoln's transcontinental railroads to Eisenhower's interstates--oh, how the GOP has wandered into the weeds!) If Clinton sells it properly it could happen, "We can now repair our infrastructure for less than we have been able to in history, and for less that we can expect in the future."
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Saturday night Bridge games at the White House were a feature of his presidency. He was a strong player, though not an expert by modern standards. The great bridge player and popularizer Ely Culbertson described his game as classic and sound with "flashes of brilliance", and said that "You can always judge a man's character by the way he plays cards. Eisenhower is a calm and collected player and never whines at his losses. He is brilliant in victory but never commits the bridge player's worst crime of gloating when he wins." Bridge expert Oswald Jacoby frequently participated in the White House games, and said, "The President plays better bridge than golf. He tries to break 90 at golf. At bridge, you would say he plays in the 70s."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower
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Mac Mcleod
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Tall_Walt wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Honestly the best stimulus to the economy would be hiring construction companies to do much needed infrastructure work on a big scale.

Two reasons. 1) because it's needed and it is better and long-run cheaper to do maintenance and repair on bridges than it is to fish them out of the rivers and do emergency fixes.

2) because real interest rates are vanishingly low, even negative, so it would be a CHEAP time to do it.

Won't happen, though.
Wikipedia

Yes, though I hate road construction as much as the next person, who doesn't actually do and profit from road construction.

(1) and (2): It is not just cheap to do it now, it's profitable. As you say, interest rates are negative (interest is less that inflation) so China and others are paying us to borrow their money! If we just put it into stocks, we'd depress stock prices, but if we put it into infrastructure, we improve US productivity for a century. As long as you're making more than the interest, it is impossible to lose money or get into financial difficulty no matter how much you borrow. (The US borrows at a fixed interest rate: it cannot change.)

Someone thinks not? You do not know your US History. Hoover Dam was built in the 1930s along with a huge number of infrastructure projects. In the northern part of the US, these projects are starting to fail and need replacement, after more than 80 years. In the Southwest, Hoover Dam and other projects are still paying dividends in the form of American productivity, and appear to have many more decades to go.

The Dwight D. Eisenhower* (Republican) National System of Interstate and Defense Highways was started in the late 1950s. Where would we be without it? How would I, in California, be able to get free shipping from CSI, in Florida? How would anything get anywhere?

Won't happen? Won't happen under Trump. It doesn't serve his interests. His businesses aren't directly about infrastructure. Clinton? Might happen: infrastructure is now in the Democratic wheelhouse (obviously, it used to belong to the Republicans, from Lincoln's transcontinental railroads to Eisenhower's interstates--oh, how the GOP has wandered into the weeds!) If Clinton sells it properly it could happen, "We can now repair our infrastructure for less than we have been able to in history, and for less that we can expect in the future."
*
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Saturday night Bridge games at the White House were a feature of his presidency. He was a strong player, though not an expert by modern standards. The great bridge player and popularizer Ely Culbertson described his game as classic and sound with "flashes of brilliance", and said that "You can always judge a man's character by the way he plays cards. Eisenhower is a calm and collected player and never whines at his losses. He is brilliant in victory but never commits the bridge player's worst crime of gloating when he wins." Bridge expert Oswald Jacoby frequently participated in the White House games, and said, "The President plays better bridge than golf. He tries to break 90 at golf. At bridge, you would say he plays in the 70s."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower


What can I say, just as General DeGaulle did; I like Ike.

(and I'm certain Ike would be appalled with this year's race and candidate).
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maxo-texas wrote:
What can I say, just as General DeGaulle did; I like Ike.

(and I'm certain Ike would be appalled with this year's race and candidate).

I wonder if, "I like Ike," would be an effective slogan these days?

"I like Lincoln: let's revitalize the transcontinental railroads; I like Ike: let's revitalize the interstates," is a pretty good pitch. It's a realistic promise for "working-class" jobs, and with Brexit, the tourism benefits would be significant. The rest of the world isn't as car-centric as the US. The 100th anniversary of the National Parks has been getting international attention. It's not going to solve any problems permanently, but it'll bridge (pardon the expression) late boomers and Gen-X working class through the the next decade or two.

It's not like the level of problems isn't at a federal scale, though if R states prefer to whine and hide in the corner, the more for states who want the help.
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Jeff Staff
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Here's a plan. Let's leave the border open and flood the country with low skilled people who can get on programs that leach off the people actually working.
Sounds like a logical plan for growth and progress. wow
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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So the plan is

1. CLINTON!
2. Build a wall to stop illegal immigrants working for the people are are suggesting the plan.
3. CLINTON!!

Did I miss anything?
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Diabolik771 wrote:
Here's a plan. Let's leave the border open and flood the country with low skilled people who can get on programs that leach off the people actually working.
Sounds like a logical plan for growth and progress. wow


You're getting worse at this.
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G Rowls
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slatersteven wrote:
So the plan is

1. CLINTON!
2. Build a wall to stop illegal immigrants working for the people are are suggesting the plan.
3. CLINTON!!

Did I miss anything?


4. Profit and glory for Trump. - OK he will claim the latter anyways.
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The majority of people who will vote for Trump don't want to go back to work, they're retired. Why would they attack their base like that?
 
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fightcitymayor
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SPIGuy wrote:
Really? As the semi-official voice of libertarian America, I thought Reason was a big proponent of "post-policy politics," by which government policy primarily consists of tax cuts followed by more tax cuts.
Inherent in the term "tax policy" is the word "policy." Thus feel free to barrage the libertarian strawman with whatever epithets you see fit, but one thing you cannot accuse libertarian-leaning politicians of is a lack of "policy" or any interest in "post-policy politics."

SPIGuy wrote:
Perhaps they're really upset because convention speakers were so busy lambasting Hillary that they forgot their usual promises to slash the top marginal rate and end the corporate income tax.
Again, you're making the typical RSP mistake of equating libertarian idealogues with the two men actually running for President. Being fiscally conservative & socially liberal, as well as desiring a government that simply lives within its means, isn't some crazy, wacko, harebrained scheme, it's actually most of America. They just don't know it yet.
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Oliver Dienz
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MWChapel wrote:
The majority of people who will vote for Trump don't want to go back to work, they're retired. Why would they attack their base like that?


Of course, the retirees do not want to go back working. They want that those lazy middle-aged bums get a job (or a second or third...). That way social security and profits keep rolling. It is all about the surplus produced by the actual workers and who can consume it.
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MWChapel wrote:
The majority of people who will vote for Trump don't want to go back to work, they're retired. Why would they attack their base like that?

I don't know about majority, but I saw a comment a while ago that Trump can only win polls that are land line only. Clinton wins polls with cell phones.
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odie73 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
The majority of people who will vote for Trump don't want to go back to work, they're retired. Why would they attack their base like that?


Of course, the retirees do not want to go back working. They want that those lazy middle-aged bums get a job (or a second or third...). That way social security and profits keep rolling. It is all about the surplus produced by the actual workers and who can consume it.

Don't understand how Social Security works, do you? All those 70-80 year-old retirees worked for decades paying into Social Security which went to people who were retired back when the 70-80 crowd was working. So what older folks really want is for their hard work to pay off now that they're retired, and also that the system will stay solvent and their kids and grandkids can enjoy the same fewer money/insurance worries.

I know, I know, it's that whole stupid "social contract" thing, where people actually look after other people, even if they've never met them. Kind what Jesus told us we should do. Stupid Jesus.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Honestly the best stimulus to the economy would be hiring construction companies to do much needed infrastructure work on a big scale.

Two reasons. 1) because it's needed and it is better and long-run cheaper to do maintenance and repair on bridges than it is to fish them out of the rivers and do emergency fixes.

2) because real interest rates are vanishingly low, even negative, so it would be a CHEAP time to do it.

Won't happen, though.
Wikipedia

Yes, though I hate road construction as much as the next person, who doesn't actually do and profit from road construction.

(1) and (2): It is not just cheap to do it now, it's profitable. As you say, interest rates are negative (interest is less that inflation) so China and others are paying us to borrow their money! If we just put it into stocks, we'd depress stock prices, but if we put it into infrastructure, we improve US productivity for a century. As long as you're making more than the interest, it is impossible to lose money or get into financial difficulty no matter how much you borrow. (The US borrows at a fixed interest rate: it cannot change.)

Someone thinks not? You do not know your US History. Hoover Dam was built in the 1930s along with a huge number of infrastructure projects. In the northern part of the US, these projects are starting to fail and need replacement, after more than 80 years. In the Southwest, Hoover Dam and other projects are still paying dividends in the form of American productivity, and appear to have many more decades to go.

The Dwight D. Eisenhower* (Republican) National System of Interstate and Defense Highways was started in the late 1950s. Where would we be without it? How would I, in California, be able to get free shipping from CSI, in Florida? How would anything get anywhere?

Won't happen? Won't happen under Trump. It doesn't serve his interests. His businesses aren't directly about infrastructure. Clinton? Might happen: infrastructure is now in the Democratic wheelhouse (obviously, it used to belong to the Republicans, from Lincoln's transcontinental railroads to Eisenhower's interstates--oh, how the GOP has wandered into the weeds!) If Clinton sells it properly it could happen, "We can now repair our infrastructure for less than we have been able to in history, and for less that we can expect in the future."
*
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Saturday night Bridge games at the White House were a feature of his presidency. He was a strong player, though not an expert by modern standards. The great bridge player and popularizer Ely Culbertson described his game as classic and sound with "flashes of brilliance", and said that "You can always judge a man's character by the way he plays cards. Eisenhower is a calm and collected player and never whines at his losses. He is brilliant in victory but never commits the bridge player's worst crime of gloating when he wins." Bridge expert Oswald Jacoby frequently participated in the White House games, and said, "The President plays better bridge than golf. He tries to break 90 at golf. At bridge, you would say he plays in the 70s."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower

Great ideas ... and bizarre trivia about Ike! Great!!
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Oliver Dienz
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remorseless1 wrote:
odie73 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
The majority of people who will vote for Trump don't want to go back to work, they're retired. Why would they attack their base like that?


Of course, the retirees do not want to go back working. They want that those lazy middle-aged bums get a job (or a second or third...). That way social security and profits keep rolling. It is all about the surplus produced by the actual workers and who can consume it.

Don't understand how Social Security works, do you? All those 70-80 year-old retirees worked for decades paying into Social Security which went to people who were retired back when the 70-80 crowd was working. So what older folks really want is for their hard work to pay off now that they're retired, and also that the system will stay solvent and their kids and grandkids can enjoy the same fewer money/insurance worries.

I know, I know, it's that whole stupid "social contract" thing, where people actually look after other people, even if they've never met them. Kind what Jesus told us we should do. Stupid Jesus.


Don’t think I really said anything different but for those that need a more detailed explanation…

At any point in time there is a part of the population working and producing ALL the output that is being consumed. The other part of the population is not working but still consumes SOME part of the produced output. Thus, the workers need to produce a SURPLUS that is consumed by the non-workers. You can express that in a model (e. g. Diamond OLG) in which the workers save some of their income (reducing their consumption) and then live off those savings when retired. Practically, though, you cannot save (most) consumption goods so the workers accumulate financial assets which allow them to buy a share of the output when they are retired. That is the way retirement works in a monetary economy. It does not matter whether we talk about public saving (Social Security) or private saving (IRA etc.). It would only not be true when the workers would accumulate durable consumption goods (instead of financial assets) that they would then solely consume when retired.

When you are a retired you like that as many people as possible are employed. That will increase total output and reduce the number of non-workers. Both will increase the possible consumption of the remaining non-workers by increasing the surplus that is available to them.

Little quiz: Does it help future generations when the government saves the Social Security surplus in some kind of bank account?
 
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remorseless1 wrote:
odie73 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
The majority of people who will vote for Trump don't want to go back to work, they're retired. Why would they attack their base like that?


Of course, the retirees do not want to go back working. They want that those lazy middle-aged bums get a job (or a second or third...). That way social security and profits keep rolling. It is all about the surplus produced by the actual workers and who can consume it.

Don't understand how Social Security works, do you? All those 70-80 year-old retirees worked for decades paying into Social Security which went to people who were retired back when the 70-80 crowd was working.


It's the worlds biggest Ponzi scheme...So I guess Trump does look like perfect candidate for them.

The problem Baby Boomers are having is their parents bred like rabbits and made far too many of them bastards, and now there is far too many of them kicking around for the rest of us working stiffs to take care of.
 
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Paul Doherty
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MWChapel wrote:
The problem Baby Boomers are having is their parents bred like rabbits and made far too many of them bastards, and now there is far too many of them kicking around for the rest of us working stiffs to take care of.


Raise the cap on SS contributions to $500,000 of annual income. Problem solved. I'll accept my Nobel prize now.
 
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Oliver Dienz
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pdoherty wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
The problem Baby Boomers are having is their parents bred like rabbits and made far too many of them bastards, and now there is far too many of them kicking around for the rest of us working stiffs to take care of.


Raise the cap on SS contributions to $500,000 of annual income. Problem solved. I'll accept my Nobel prize now.


Not really. Retirement is not a monetary problem. The US government can print any amount of $ current or future generations want. The question is how much goods and services those generations can buy with it.

We need to make sure that future productivity is high enough that workers and non-workers have enough good and services available to them for consumption. Retirement therefore depends on the "size of the pie" (= total output) and how big everyone's piece will be (= distribution of output).
 
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