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Imperial Settlers: Aztecs» Forums » General

Subject: Playing both Aztecs and Atlanteans rss

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Anthony harris
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How is this likely to work? Will the other two factions need +20 cards from both new faction boxes. Will all the common cards need to be shuffled together?
 
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Israel Waldrom
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All factions count as 'base factions', and can be played against each other without any issue. It's when you want to start adding cards outside of the starting 30 for each faction that you have to worry about the deck building rules.
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Darius Blackwell
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Well I wonder myself - in the newest little expansion there was slight change of rules - now in standard format you are asked to remove all cards from the generic deck - so I would love to see what new set will bring with regards to "balanced" vision of Ignacy
 
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Christina Crouch
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mogust wrote:
All factions count as 'base factions', and can be played against each other without any issue. It's when you want to start adding cards outside of the starting 30 for each faction that you have to worry about the deck building rules.


This is not true. The game is designed so that in the "standard" game, you would only add one expansion Faction in with the base ones. So for instance, when you add Atlanteans to base, you add the Atlanteans Common Cards (COM098-125) to the Common deck, and then you add faction specific cards XXX-041-050 to each base Faction to make them work with Atlanteans. You also have to make four specific card substitutions to make it work. I believe this means that you do need to deck build because you will have added these extra cards to each faction.

Standard game recommends that you only use either one expansion faction at a time (not both), otherwise cards would become quite dilute / chaotic, due to the deck composition changes induced in both the common and base faction decks.

If you were playing in 'free' mode you can shuffle what you like. But I don't know whether they would have play tested the interactions between the Atlanteans and the Aztecs to know whether they can work together.
 
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Dave
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malibu_babe_28 wrote:
mogust wrote:
All factions count as 'base factions', and can be played against each other without any issue. It's when you want to start adding cards outside of the starting 30 for each faction that you have to worry about the deck building rules.


This is not true. The game is designed so that in the "standard" game, you would only add one expansion Faction in with the base ones. So for instance, when you add Atlanteans to base, you add the Atlanteans Common Cards (COM098-125) to the Common deck, and then you add faction specific cards XXX-041-050 to each base Faction to make them work with Atlanteans
I don't believe this to be exactly true. You can play Atlanteans with the Why Can't We Be Friends or 3 is a Magic Number expansions without using the Atlantean expansion common cards.

For example, if you were playing Atlanteans vs Barbarians with the Why Can't We Be Friends expansion, the Atlanteans and Barbarians would each build 30 card decks, pulling cards from their base 30 cards and their Why Can't We Be Friends cards. The common cards would consist of the base cards plus the Why Can't We Be Friends cards. The Atlantean common cards would not be used.

I assume that the Aztecs will come with a set of 30 base cards, plus cards for each of the other expansions (Atlantean, Why Can't We Be Friends, and 3 is a Magic Number). The Aztec expansion will probably also come with Aztec common cards as well as Aztec expansion faction cards for each of the other factions.

I hope that made sense.
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Israel Waldrom
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malibu_babe_28 wrote:
mogust wrote:
All factions count as 'base factions', and can be played against each other without any issue. It's when you want to start adding cards outside of the starting 30 for each faction that you have to worry about the deck building rules.


This is not true. The game is designed so that in the "standard" game, you would only add one expansion Faction in with the base ones. So for instance, when you add Atlanteans to base, you add the Atlanteans Common Cards (COM098-125) to the Common deck, and then you add faction specific cards XXX-041-050 to each base Faction to make them work with Atlanteans. You also have to make four specific card substitutions to make it work. I believe this means that you do need to deck build because you will have added these extra cards to each faction.

Standard game recommends that you only use either one expansion faction at a time (not both), otherwise cards would become quite dilute / chaotic, due to the deck composition changes induced in both the common and base faction decks.

If you were playing in 'free' mode you can shuffle what you like. But I don't know whether they would have play tested the interactions between the Atlanteans and the Aztecs to know whether they can work together.


My understanding from the numerous threads on this topic, is that all factions are counted as base factions, and when playing with the Atlanteans/Aztecs you only add in their common cards to the deck if another faction is deck building with cards from that faction.

There has not been a clear cut official answer on this unfortunately, but treated like this it means you can play with any mix of factions without issue. Otherwise there really wouldn't be any point in Portal releasing extra factions or expansions as you'd be stuck not being able to use most of what you have (which is sort of the case anyways, but not quite as much).
 
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Christina Crouch
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I understand what you are saying.
You definitely can use a small expansion with a Faction expansion. But the small expansions aren't faction expansions.

But I believe you want to use one small and one faction expansion, you add BOTH the Atlanteans Common Cards and the WCWBF Common cards to the Commons deck.

If you don't, you are putting the Atlantean faction at a disadvantage because there are cards yielding basic tech tokens in the Common cards that come with Atlanteans (about 7-8 of them).

What I was originally trying to say is mixing Atlanteans with Aztecs is a bad idea. Mixing Atlanteans with WCWBF or TIAMN is probably ok.
 
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Israel Waldrom
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malibu_babe_28 wrote:
I understand what you are saying.
You definitely can use a small expansion with a Faction expansion. But the small expansions aren't faction expansions.

But I believe you want to use one small and one faction expansion, you add BOTH the Atlanteans Common Cards and the WCWBF Common cards to the Commons deck.

If you don't, you are putting the Atlantean faction at a disadvantage because there are cards yielding basic tech tokens in the Common cards that come with Atlanteans (about 7-8 of them).

What I was originally trying to say is mixing Atlanteans with Aztecs is a bad idea. Mixing Atlanteans with WCWBF or TIAMN is probably ok.


From all of my plays with the Atlanteans, they play very well without the additional common cards. In fact, I find that they are even more powerful with access to the additional technology common cards, and if the other factions aren't deckbuilt with the Atlantean cards, then they have an unfair advantage (and the cards become less useful to the other factions). Hence part of the reason why I say, only use the common cards if the other factions are deckbuilding.
 
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Łukasz Wachowski
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STANDARD RULES (for tournaments):

1. Each player pick a faction and take their "starter" deck (from FAC001 to FAC030, where FAC is ROM/BAR/EGY/JAP/ATL/AZT), so 30 cards.
2. Each player SEPARATELY choose the faction he mix its faction mix with. Player 1 may choose expanion A with player 2 may choose expanion B or they may choose the same expanion. Non-base factions (Atlanteans and Aztecs) can't choose expanion they're from (so Atlanteans may choose only WCWBF or 3IAMN for now only, they will be able to choose Aztecs expanion set cards, but Aztecs won't). After choosing, each player take 10 faction cards from chosen expansion. Expanion I'm talk about are both Empire Packs and Facton expanions)
3. Each player having now 40 cards (30 base and 10 from chosen expanion) choose 30 cards, so discard 1 set of triple cards, 2 sets of double cards and 3 single cards. If you choose the Atlanteans expansion, you MUST discard direct triple set (instruction).
4. When each player made their 30-card deck, prepare Common deck from ONLY BASE SET. You can't use Common cards from any expansion in this mode.

In Open format you may use the entire set of Common cards (base game + each expanion) or just chosen combination of them. Your choice, there is no problem with mixing tech/faith cards then, but only in non-tournament format.
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Christina Crouch
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Wow - I have never seen this expressed in this way. Could you point me at where this appears in the rules?
 
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Łukasz Wachowski
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Well, 1 point is simple, it's just basegame.
2-3 points in each expanion and I thought is clear. The problem with understand may be "When you play with Atlanteans". It doesn't mean "when one of players play by Atlanteans faction", but "when the player chose Atlanteans expanion (tech feature) to its faction". You may read in these instruction that you may mix your cards from basic game with cards from only one expanion. People often understand it like "all players have to choose ONE and THE same expanion, BUT the instruction says about DECKBUILDING, but just preparing a match, so its only affect ONE player.

In the 4 point I said about using Common cards only from base set (no exanion common ever). Before then it was said that you shuffle common cards from chosen expanion, but the rule was confusing and slows the preparation. In the tournaments its important to make the match easy and fast to prepare. That's why each place (stadium?) should be prepared in a flash independently from players, their decks and expanion they are gonna use with themselves, and after match it's should be easy to clear stuff. The change of using only common base cards was new in 3IAMN and (after doubts) confirmed by Trzewiczek in late June. I think its fair.

I think it should be described more clear and posted official somewhere (in reprinted instruction for best).

That way is also good for player who prefer deckbuilding before the game. Just prepare your deck day earlier, grab it next day to tournament (or list of your cards) and start t play. Without any other preparing stuff, which may last forever. It also don't push these players to buy every single expanion to be able to be compentive.

At my site Imperial Settlers (i3ackero.pl/isorganizer) all these rules will be described more precisely.
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Christina Crouch
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Thanks for clarifying this. I haven't got 3IAMN, so I haven't seen the rules (but I will download). The reason I am interested is because I write rules summaries, and what you lay out here is a bit different from what I understood from the rulebooks, so I need to revise my summaries if the intent has changed.

If people are playing in Open format instead, I know that technically they can chuck in whatever they like, but are there recommendations on how to do the combining for Open?

I feel like the game could do with a helper app for setup :/
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Łukasz Wachowski
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malibu_babe_28 wrote:
I feel like the game could do with a helper app for setup :/


I'm working on Android app for this

I rarely play Open format, but I would just:

1. Build common deck of ALL common deck I own.
2. Let build 30-cards deck to every player from ALL-their-faction-cards pool (in format you have 40 cards in pool).

That's how I understand it, but I don't like this format due to:

a) It's supr easy to build your deck around ultimate combo or one-color empire. Then everybody has a lack of tech/counter cards and make the game more passive and boring. For example: full red Japanese (after 3IAMN) or "Full gold->points Machine". Too many key cards to put countering cards, so only Barb pile. Less interaction -> more boring game.
b) Preparation and match itself are much more longer. More combos are fun, but from twice larger card pool i's easier to build a perfect Empire and as we know the turns in high-score games can take forever. In limited 40-card pool you have to both use your brain more about using less resources, and use filler/counter cards in your deck.

There is also my 2 "home" formats:

ANARCHY
Players choose faction and play using ALL faction cards. No deckbuilding. Fastest to prepare, harder to combo, but the game is more random then. In addition players may decide to discard some cards from their deck or change any number of cards from their starting (only starting) deck. Common deck is full of all own cards.

STARTER
No deckbuilding. Players use only FAC001-FAC030 cards. So it's just game without expanion except the rule you may use non-base factions. Player who choose Atlantean faction still have to use its ATL001-ATL030 cards. It's another fast-to prepare game, but it's very balanced (but kill the skill part of deckbuilding) and recommended for teaching new players.
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Dave
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Lukasz, that's some great information. I actually have 3IAMN and wasn't aware of the "only use the base Common cards" rule. blush

I think my preferred method of playing "casual" games will still be to use all base cards plus one expansion for common and faction decks, with the factions of course deckbuilding down to 30 cards.

Has there been any official guidance on the solo game regarding common deck composition?
 
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Łukasz Wachowski
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lSweetJusticel wrote:
Has there been any official guidance on the solo game regarding common deck composition?


Every format is allowed. I recommended to stay by this:

SOLO GAME

1. If you are playing as FRA001-FRA030 (no expanion besides starter civ), make a Common deck only from the base game.
a) If you are playing by Atlantean faction, you may shuffle Common cards from their expanions additionally. It will be not standard anymore, but it's no tournament anyway
2. If you are deckbuilding your faction deck by standard rules, use only common deck. As a Atlantean faction don't even shuffle Atlantean Common cards to common deck.
3. If you are deckbuilding your faction in open format (using all expanions you have), crate a common deck of cards from base set and each expanion you own. If you don't use any card from expanion A, you don't have to (but you may) to not using the common cards from this expanion. If you are using at least 1 card from expanion B in your faction deck, you should use all common cards from this expanion.

I don't know how's about campaign. I'm going to play campaign mode first time by Aztecs
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Ian Tavener
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Whatever happened to just being able to toss in an expansion and keep playing. All this stuff about what to include and what to remove based on who is playing what faction, blah blah blah. Turns me right off getting anymore expansions for this game.
 
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Łukasz Wachowski
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If your group doesn't like deckbuilding thing there is no problem of pick just first 30 cards of each faction and start playing. It's also the most balanced scenario.

Or organize your box. I have all my base faction decks (30 cards) in string bags and each expansion faction cards in string bags as well. That takes us up to 5 minutes more of setup to deckbuild and play standard.
 
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