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Scythe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Trade too strong? rss

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Alex Kaminsky
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Just played my first game last night. Am I reading trade action incorrectly that you just get to place 2 of any resource (by paying $1)? The single coin seems like a small cost to pay compared to the produce action.

Also I steamrolled as white. The double encounter is nuts. I rushed the factory by deploying the lakewalk mech and letting my hero get there in short order.
 
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Jeffrey Speer
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Yes, trade is too strong, the game wasn't playtested at all. cool
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Jeffrey Speer
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Produce action lets you get 1 resource per meeple in two hexes, possibly three with an upgrade. Paying a coin makes sense in circumstances dictated by board state.
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Trevor Schadt
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believeinalex wrote:
Just played my first game last night. Am I reading trade action incorrectly that you just get to place 2 of any resource (by paying $1)? The single coin seems like a small cost to pay compared to the produce action.
At the beginning of the game, Trade is almost certainly stronger, since you only have two workers and access to three(*) of the five(**) resources. Of course, Trade is also more expensive at the beginning of the game, since it costs $1 and Produce costs nothing until you have 4 workers on the board. Trade is very useful for getting the resources to which you don't have access at the beginning of the game and jump-starting your engine.

Once mid-game hits, Produce becomes stronger, as you will almost certainly be getting more than two resources (unless you've spread your workers thin and haven't upgraded or built the Mill), but it also becomes more expensive (1 Power + 1 Pop + 1 Coin once you've gotten all 8 Workers out).

(*) More if you're Nordic and you send your workers a-swimmin'.
(**) Counting Workers as a resource for this purpose, even though they technically aren't, and you can't Trade for them.

believeinalex wrote:
Also I steamrolled as white. The double encounter is nuts. I rushed the factory by deploying the lakewalk mech and letting my hero get there in short order.
Polania's start is very dependent on what that first encounter gives them. If it lands them a mech, their character can use the expanded movement to get to more encounters and compound their early-game lead. If not, they still get a lot of things, but it's not quite as devastating.
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Alex Kaminsky
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OH! We were playing it where you could choose 2 meeples and get 1 of those resources. Dang.
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Joe Pilkus
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In a recent interview, Jamey mentioned that one of the things he loves to do is jump start those bottom row actions, which often require the use of the Trade action.
 
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Greg
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Workers aren't resources that can be gained from trade.
 
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I haven't seen this mentioned yet: Trade is also always paired with the bottom row action that gets you no bonus coins. (Move with 1, Produce with 2, Bolster with 3, unless you're Mechanical.)
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Tyler DeLisle
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believeinalex wrote:
Also I steamrolled as white. The double encounter is nuts. I rushed the factory by deploying the lakewalk mech and letting my hero get there in short order.


I'm just curious, since I played this wrong at first, the move action grants 3 movement for 3 different units. You can't spend all 3 move on one unit to, for example, rush the factory. It would take several turns for white to get to the factory with Lake Walking. There's another faction, I think the Red one, that actually has an ability to rush the factory and they should beat you there long before you can make it as white. It's not until you also get the increased move speed mech, and the factory tile, that you can zip around with 3 moves on your hero.
 
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J Kaemmer
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Kaworu17 wrote:
Produce action lets you get 1 resource per meeple in two hexes, possibly three with an upgrade. Paying a coin makes sense in circumstances dictated by board state.


Don't forget about the mill, you could produce on 4 tiles, with an effective grand total of 9 workers. The resource diversity/flexibility of production and volume far exceeds trade in the mid to late game. I almost wonder if the thread is joke. 9 resources vs 2... pretty easy to figure out which is better.

Even if you don't build all your workers, building 3 plus a mill still nets you 6 resources, better ability to spread out your workers, and only costs a power.

If anything trade is incredibly weak, and only useful to cover small shortcomings after a produce action or create resources you don't have access to. Every time you are using trade, you are losing a point at the end of the game, yes you can make more and maxed out work-force also costs the same coin, but you get more from it (Think about opportunity cost of resources at the end of the game, at best you have max popularity where 2 resources nets you 3 points, worst is 1. With a produce action you can offset that to a MINIMUM of 4 points, max of 12. Any way you look at it, its a net benefit in favor of Production).
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Trevor Schadt
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Hahma wrote:
Workers aren't resources that can be gained from trade.
I stated that explicitly in my explanation, but thank you for calling it out to make sure that there's no confusion.
 
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Tyler DeLisle
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
Don't forget about the mill, you could produce on 4 tiles, with an effective grand total of 9 workers. The resource diversity/flexibility of production and volume far exceeds trade in the mid to late game. I almost wonder if the thread is joke. 9 resources vs 2... pretty easy to figure out which is better.


I don't think it's a joke, he's a new user, and at the risk of sounding haughty, declaring a game imbalanced after one play is a newbie mistake.

Trade is overpowered... the first few turns of the game. It's designed that way. Trade is necessary to get the game jumpstarted. As pointed out above, once you get multiple workers spread out on different resource points, then produce is far, far better. You also get far less willing to trade a coin (a victory point) just to get a few resources, as the game goes on.

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Chris Laudermilk
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No.

OK, to expand, like other have stated: it's stronger at the beginning of the game. You can use it to jumpstart deploying a mech or building a structure. Later produce is much stronger. You are also spending $1 each time for 2 resources; you have to balance the resource gain against the fact you are spending VPs, and likely cannot recoup them with bottom actions.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but: Play a few more games before declaring the game unbalanced. This one got a ton of playtesting and attention to balance.
 
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Chris Skelton
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believeinalex wrote:
OH! We were playing it where you could choose 2 meeples and get 1 of those resources. Dang.


I think this is the key to the OP's feeling that trade is too powerful. If produce was per meeple instead of per hex, trade would be much more powerful in comparison.
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Jason Thompson
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
Don't forget about the mill, you could produce on 4 tiles, with an effective grand total of 9 workers. The resource diversity/flexibility of production and volume far exceeds trade in the mid to late game. I almost wonder if the thread is joke. 9 resources vs 2... pretty easy to figure out which is better.


One of us is playing this wrong, and since I've only played once, I bet it is me.

As I understand it, without upgrades you only pick two hexes to produce when you take this action. So unless all workers are on two hexes, you don't get 9 resources when you produce. Also, the mill only works like a worker and you still have to choose that hex to produce.

Am I wrong?
 
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Greg
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NaptownMVP wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
Don't forget about the mill, you could produce on 4 tiles, with an effective grand total of 9 workers. The resource diversity/flexibility of production and volume far exceeds trade in the mid to late game. I almost wonder if the thread is joke. 9 resources vs 2... pretty easy to figure out which is better.


One of us is playing this wrong, and since I've only played once, I bet it is me.

As I understand it, without upgrades you only pick two hexes to produce when you take this action. So unless all workers are on two hexes, you don't get 9 resources when you produce. Also, the mill only works like a worker and you still have to choose that hex to produce.

Am I wrong?


I didn't realize it at first either, but I saw it mentioned in amother thread that the mill gives you an extra space to produce on. So if you didn't upgrade yet and would normally only be able to produce on 2 spaces, if you had the mill on 1 space, a worker on another space, and a worker on yet another space, you would he able to produce on all 3 spaces.
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NaptownMVP wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
Don't forget about the mill, you could produce on 4 tiles, with an effective grand total of 9 workers. The resource diversity/flexibility of production and volume far exceeds trade in the mid to late game. I almost wonder if the thread is joke. 9 resources vs 2... pretty easy to figure out which is better.


One of us is playing this wrong, and since I've only played once, I bet it is me.

As I understand it, without upgrades you only pick two hexes to produce when you take this action. So unless all workers are on two hexes, you don't get 9 resources when you produce. Also, the mill only works like a worker and you still have to choose that hex to produce.

Am I wrong?

The mill acts as a free space. Imagine you have upgraded Produce and also built the Mill:

1. You can choose up to 3 different territories to produce.
2. Your workers on those territories will produce.
3. If you picked a territory with the mill, it produces like a worker would.
4. If you picked 3 territories WITHOUT the mill, the mill's territory still produces! The mill and any workers on the mill space all produce.

If you look at your player mat, you'll see 2 or 3 hexes you can choose as your green reward for Produce. If you build the mill, another hex will appear underneath it, since the mill hex is always automatically selected as an "extra" space. (You could technically manually select it, I guess, but it wastes the mill's power.)
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John Bruns
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NaptownMVP wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
Don't forget about the mill, you could produce on 4 tiles, with an effective grand total of 9 workers. The resource diversity/flexibility of production and volume far exceeds trade in the mid to late game. I almost wonder if the thread is joke. 9 resources vs 2... pretty easy to figure out which is better.


One of us is playing this wrong, and since I've only played once, I bet it is me.

As I understand it, without upgrades you only pick two hexes to produce when you take this action. So unless all workers are on two hexes, you don't get 9 resources when you produce. Also, the mill only works like a worker and you still have to choose that hex to produce.

Am I wrong?


Yes, the mill also acts as an additional hex to produce on. That includes other workers on it's hex too. I got this wrong initially too. I think it might have been one of the changes to the final rules made after extensive play testing.
 
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Jason Thompson
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I knew I had something wrong! Thanks for the clarification!
 
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Bart L

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The mill acts like a worker, but it's hex can always produce during hte action, even if you don't pick it as 1 of the two. So fully upgraded with mill can activate 4 hexes (3 of your choice, 1 with mill)
 
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Michael Williams
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Aganerral wrote:
The mill acts like a worker, but it's hex can always produce during hte action, even if you don't pick it as 1 of the two. So fully upgraded with mill can activate 4 hexes (3 of your choice, 1 with mill)


As long as there is a worker with the Mill.
 
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Chris Skelton
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CptPalmer wrote:
Aganerral wrote:
The mill acts like a worker, but it's hex can always produce during hte action, even if you don't pick it as 1 of the two. So fully upgraded with mill can activate 4 hexes (3 of your choice, 1 with mill)


As long as there is a worker with the Mill.


I'm pretty sure the mill produces as long as you control the territory, workers present or not.
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Danwarr
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znomorph wrote:
CptPalmer wrote:
Aganerral wrote:
The mill acts like a worker, but it's hex can always produce during hte action, even if you don't pick it as 1 of the two. So fully upgraded with mill can activate 4 hexes (3 of your choice, 1 with mill)


As long as there is a worker with the Mill.


I'm pretty sure the mill produces as long as you control the territory, workers present or not.


This is correct.

Page 18

Quote:
Mill: Whenever you take the Produce action, the Mill may produce as if it were 1 worker. If there are workers on the Mill's territory they may also produce. (it's an extra territory for production)
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Adria D
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Danwarr wrote:
This is correct.

Page 18

Quote:
Mill: Whenever you take the Produce action, the Mill may produce as if it were 1 worker. If there are workers on the Mill's territory they may also produce. (it's an extra territory for production)

I'm glad I read this thread. I must have glossed over the part in brackets (maybe something that important shouldn't be in brackets?). I thought the Mill acted like a worker, and produced only if you chose that hex. Turns out it's a lot better than that!
 
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John Bruns
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CptPalmer wrote:
Aganerral wrote:
The mill acts like a worker, but it's hex can always produce during hte action, even if you don't pick it as 1 of the two. So fully upgraded with mill can activate 4 hexes (3 of your choice, 1 with mill)


As long as there is a worker with the Mill.


This caught me too. It is a change from the old PDF to the printed and updated rules.
 
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