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Freierfall Sonnenflieger
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Hey guys, sorry that I make a new thread because of such a topic.
Quite a while ago I regularly browsed the TM Forums and I remember a thread where someone created a chart (from the snellman statistics(?)) according to which one could give bonuses to weaker factions as a measure of "balancing". But I simply can't find it anymore, not via the search, nor via google or "manually" looking in the (variants??) forum. Since I'd like to use something like that in my plays, I'd appreciate your help finding it /maybe someone remembers that thread and can help.

best regards
FF
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Lawrence
United States
Tustin
California
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https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/122626/terra-mystica-...
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Erik Burigo
Italy
Belluno
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“Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.” - Granny Weatherwax
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Was it this one?

I think it may be antiquated at the moment.
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James Wolfpacker
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North Carolina
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Painkeeper wrote:
Was it this one?

I think it may be antiquated at the moment.


Yeah, I would say so. You would need to definitely redo this and base it on 3 major settings of all players rated 1000+.

Player Count (2p, 3p, 4p, 5p)
Final Scoring (Original, Final Scoring Tile Added)
Map (Original, Fire and Ice, Revised)

This gives 24 different combinations/settings.

Some of these settings will not have enough Faction Plays (need at least 30) to yield a valid result. The old versions of Riverwalkers and Shapeshifters should be thrown out as well (v5 is the current/errata version).

There is another way that the factions are being "balanced" using Bonus Landscapes. Some of these, well, probably cause more imbalance, but hey, it sure makes the game more interesting!

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/210191/terra-mystica-...

I do like the idea of making Bonus Favors which give income to weaker factions. However, this assumes the players are of equal skill and we know that is very difficult to judge.
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Robert
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Bocholt
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I think the sheet is cool for 4p games on the base map with base factions, i.e. (roughly) tournament settings. The presence of expansion scoring, expansion factions and/or expansion maps give different results for a given faction, and the buff/nerf will likely be too strong in such settings.
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Matthias Reitberger
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Nürnberg
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I don't think you can get a better balance this way. The strength of a faction is highly dependent on setup and opponents.
Engineers and CMs are great without neighboring colors but bad against witches / nomads.
For alchemists there are setups where they will certainly win if played right.
If you look at those old stats you also see that factions like dwarves and halflings were then considered strong while they are now rather on the weak side.
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Henrik Johansson
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Järfälla
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Painkeeper wrote:
I think it may be antiquated at the moment.

I have checked the current snellman statistics, and the data built into the tool remains solid and valid! The data used when the balancing tool was created and the data today differs very little, although a lot of games have been filed since then.
I have supplied the newest data as a comment to the tool file page section.
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
There is another way that the factions are being "balanced" using Bonus Landscapes. Some of these, well, probably cause more imbalance, but hey, it sure makes the game more interesting!

The good idea to use the Terra Mystica: Erweiterungsbogen as a balancing tool fell short when the Darklings were not nerfed by the mini-expansion (!). The idea to have a nerfing of the Darklings done by the Terra Mystica: Erweiterungsbogen actually came from the designer himself, but it did not reach the voting stage. (Go look in the forum if you are interested).
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Space Trucker
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@sthrjo:
We surely won't come to an agreement about the question how severely TM is flawed by minor (or major) balancing issues and I don't want to discuss this anew here.


Still there are two points that are maybe worth looking at:

sthrjo wrote:
I have supplied the newest data as a comment to the tool file page section.

You've supplied a list of average scores for factions. It is commonly agreed that this is not the best value to measure the strength of a faction. This is because factions also influence the scores of their opponents more or less.
An example: Cultists usually get a lot of points from cults. While their average score is only... average, they are still one of the strongest factions. They simply take away possible points from other factions (who will get less points from cults) and therefore they need to score less points to win than e.g. their brown brothers halflings, who score exra points by digging (which does not hurt anyone).
Halflings are considered one of the weaker factions, still they are among the top of your average point ranking, while usually stronger Cultists are in the middle.
I'd suggest that you look at either average position or average margin (score difference) instead.

sthrjo wrote:
The good idea to use the Terra Mystica: Erweiterungsbogen as a balancing tool fell short when the Darklings were not nerfed by the mini-expansion (!). The idea to have a nerfing of the Darklings done by the Terra Mystica: Erweiterungsbogen actually came from the designer himself, but it did not reach the voting stage. (Go look in the forum if you are interested).

Nobody knows how the tiles will look once they are finally designed and playtested (I guess different than the designs we voted on). Still the actual designs would be a nerf for the relativ strength of darklings as their design is one of the weakest tiles while other factions get more useful tools.
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Robert
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Bocholt
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SpaceTrucker wrote:
I'd suggest that you look at either average position or average margin (score difference) instead.
What SpaceTrucker wrote!
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Gambia
Brest
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SpaceTrucker wrote:
@sthrjo:
We surely won't come to an agreement about the question how severely TM is flawed by minor (or major) balancing issues and I don't want to discuss this anew here.


Please continue until someone reach the Godwin's point. devil

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C TK
Canada
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SpaceTrucker wrote:
factions also influence the scores of their opponents more or less.
An example: Cultists usually get a lot of points from cults. While their average score is only... average, they are still one of the strongest factions. They simply take away possible points from other factions (who will get less points from cults) and therefore they need to score less points to win than e.g. their brown brothers halflings, who score exra points by digging (which does not hurt anyone).
Halflings are considered one of the weaker factions, still they are among the top of your average point ranking, while usually stronger Cultists are in the middle.
I'd suggest that you look at either average position or average margin (score difference) instead.


Another reason Cultists perform well despite average scores is because their opponents harm themselves by declining leech

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Space Trucker
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Skyswooper wrote:
Please continue until someone reach the Godwin's point. devil
Not going to happen. Both sides have already confirmed that historical analogies are to be found not in the 20th century but much more roughly 2100 years earlier. cool
It's just that sthrjo rephrases his desire a bit more often than Cato the Elder.
 
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