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Zombicide: Black Plague» Forums » Rules

Subject: necromancer cabal rules broken? rss

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Bo Jackson
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Ever since getting the rest of the kickstarter stuff, it seems like we lost every game to unlucky spawns.

Inevitably 2 necromancers spawn on top of each other and cabalify creating 2 permanent spawn zones. Then it happens again, and the same thing happens. Seems like complete BS to lose over such a random thing. Even if we're doing good and looking like we're gonna win, it almost inevitably happens.

Anyone else have similar experience and what did you do? I'm been thinking of just totally ignoring the cabal rules.
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Brian Torrens
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Already doing that. The first time I played with more than one type of necromancer it was immediately apparent that the Cabal rules had to go. In one game there would have been three instances of an instant game loss with multiple Necro spawns, too far away from the players to do anything about it.

I'm sure some players have already come up with alternate rules to the cabal. I think I had read somewhere a suggestion to have certain necromancer cabals cause an extra activation of certain zombie types?
 
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Cameron Knees
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Play the Cabal rules without the Dark Ritual. Best solution in my opinion.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The two popular methods are either ignoring the Dark Ritual entirely, or only allowing Necromancers that spawn from different starting Zones to perform the Dark Ritual.

It still amazes me that GG continues to support the Cabal rules and calls the instant loss possibility 'rare'. I don't know how the rule ever survived playtesting either!
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Mark Blasco

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Definitely just nix the dark ritual, that's really broken. Any rule that can allow you to go from doing really well to failing a game without allowing you any chance of stopping it is a bad rule. We've just been only allowing one necromancer on the board at a time, so it hasn't been an issue, but if we were to allow more than one, that rule would never get used.
 
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Brian
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Clipper wrote:
It still amazes me that GG continues to support the Cabal rules and calls the instant loss possibility 'rare'. I don't know how the rule ever survived playtesting either!
Well if half of the copies of the game are retail and half are KS then in half the copies of the game it never happens. Of the KS copies if 3/4ths of the players ignore the rule we are down to 1/8th... If half of those are huntsmen they only have one special necro so only in a fraction of the games played by 1/8 of the players does it ever happen, and most of those players give up and stop playing because of the terrible rule... So in something like 1/25 games it is possible and happens in maybe half those?

I would say a 2% chance is fairly rare.

I am planning to move any necro that spawns in a zone with a necro spawn point to another zone... Which is similar to the above mentioned 'only necros from different zones can dark ritual' rule.
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Flo Heisenbrain
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Melriken wrote:
Clipper wrote:
It still amazes me that GG continues to support the Cabal rules and calls the instant loss possibility 'rare'. I don't know how the rule ever survived playtesting either!
Well if half of the copies of the game are retail and half are KS then in half the copies of the game it never happens. Of the KS copies if 3/4ths of the players ignore the rule we are down to 1/8th... If half of those are huntsmen they only have one special necro so only in a fraction of the games played by 1/8 of the players does it ever happen, and most of those players give up and stop playing because of the terrible rule... So in something like 1/25 games it is possible and happens in maybe half those?

I would say a 2% chance is fairly rare.

Oh come on! If 3/4 of all KS backers have to ignore a rule to conclude "this almost never happens" you are doing statistics wrong!
There ar roughly 1.000 Huntsman pledges against 19.000 (!) Knight pledges, not counting Late Backers who only could get Knight Pledges. Stop bullsh*tting around.
Even Huntsman Pledges do own 4 Necros (Ostokar, Queen Medea and 2 Standard).

And again you count on "most of those players giving up", which undermines how bad the current Dark Ritual rule actually is.

I recognise your comment could be ment ironically, but nevertheless i wasn't able to let this nonsense unopposed. shake


To the OP i would suggest you try out modifying the Dark Ritual to what Clipper mentioned:
Only Necromancers from different Spawn zones can perform a Dark Ritual together. This keeps the spirit of the Dark Ritual in place, while removing the instant loss possibility.

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Max Maloney
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The Dark Ritual was a cute idea from a thematic standpoint, but it seems pretty worthless. Aside from the fact that it's clearly broken, I don't think you need extra difficulty to the "multiple Necromancers in play" situation. That is already one of the most dangerous states for the game to be in. Why make it even more difficult?
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Flo Heisenbrain
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Dormammu wrote:
The Dark Ritual was a cute idea from a thematic standpoint, but it seems pretty worthless. Aside from the fact that it's clearly broken, I don't think you need extra difficulty to the "multiple Necromancers in play" situation. That is already one of the most dangerous states for the game to be in. Why make it even more difficult?

I think it's about shortening the time you can let Necromancer be alive. You have to be always on the watch to not loose the game, even if you're close to your own goals.
I think it adds difficulty when you find the game too easy, with all the possibilites to get to str. 3 (i'm talking with KS stuff here).

I'm not saying you have to use it or anything, but there are ways to have it mostly intact but solving the instant loss situation.
 
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chang chang

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my solution? simple, when they dark ritual = resolve one zombie spawn at red level in the zone they pass each other. Because I liked that when 2 necro run into each other they should do something cool.

I`ll be working on something more... a table and you roll a D4-D6 to see what happens; but the idea would be in that line.

I tried the from different spawn points and then had 2 necro spawn infront of each other in a building, that`s when I gave up on the ritual LOL
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Chuck Hurd
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chang_1910 wrote:
my solution? simple, when they dark ritual = resolve one zombie spawn at red level in the zone they pass each other. Because I liked that when 2 necro run into each other they should do something cool.

This sounds like a fun option. After the Red spawn the Necros are removed from the board as normal? Do their spawn tokens remain?
 
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Flo Heisenbrain
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Carcking wrote:
chang_1910 wrote:
my solution? simple, when they dark ritual = resolve one zombie spawn at red level in the zone they pass each other. Because I liked that when 2 necro run into each other they should do something cool.

This sounds like a fun option. After the Red spawn the Necros are removed from the board as normal? Do their spawn tokens remain?

I think they live on, trying to get to the nearest exit as normal. You still have to kill them to prevent their spawn tokens getting permanent.
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Sebastian Beck
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It is totally broken. Unlucky card draws destroy a 2 1/2 hours game in a second without any chance to prevent that.

For that rule alone, the game was fired from my shelf. Bad playtesting after all these years, sorry.
 
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Luke Jacobs
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Beckikaze wrote:
Bad playtesting after all these years, sorry.


No need to apologize. That's a legitimate criticism of GG as a game studio.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Beckikaze wrote:
For that rule alone, the game was fired from my shelf. Bad playtesting after all these years, sorry.

Wouldn't it just fire the expansion, or the extra Kickstarter components, from your shelf? The Cabal rules can't be activated with the base game's components after all...

Having said that, I do agree they really dropped the ball in the playtesting on that one rule. It's odd that they stand behind it with no sign of budging too, but perhaps that has something to do with it being one of the features touted during the Kickstarter campaign. At least it's an extremely easy rule to just ignore.
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Luke Jacobs
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Clipper wrote:
It's odd that they stand behind it with no sign of budging too,


Agreed. It's stuff like this that gives me the sense the GG team is more of an echo chamber than a group of serious designers. Same feeling I get from the SDE crew.

"This game is awesome!"
"I know! We're awesome!"
"New idea!"
"Must also be awesome!"

Clipper wrote:
At least it's an extremely easy rule to just ignore.


And that's the saving grace of this series for me. Whenever they drop the ball, I either kick it over the fence or replace it with a better ball.
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Luke Jacobs
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Heisenbrain wrote:
[q="Melriken"]
I would say a 2% chance is fairly rare.


Heisenbrain wrote:

I recognise your comment could be ment ironically, but nevertheless i wasn't able to let this nonsense unopposed. shake


I'm 90% sure that post was one long math joke. The winky face at the end was likely meant to signify that.

Mind you, if the poster was being serious, I'm with you on this one.


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Peter Baker
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mournful wrote:
Heisenbrain wrote:
[q="Melriken"]
I would say a 2% chance is fairly rare.


Heisenbrain wrote:

I recognise your comment could be ment ironically, but nevertheless i wasn't able to let this nonsense unopposed. shake


I'm 90% sure that post was one long math joke. The winky face at the end was likely meant to signify that.

Mind you, if the poster was being serious, I'm with you on this one.




I hope so to, pretty sure 1/25 chance is not a 2% chance, sorry getting off topic.

As said above saving grace is if you don't like the rule ignore it/mod it.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Digimortal wrote:
I hope so to, pretty sure 1/25 chance is not a 2% chance, sorry getting off topic.

He said about half of a 1 in 25 chance, and half of 1/25 is 2%

But yes, the smiley in the post thankfully allows us to avoid the Poe's Law situation that is under discussion .
 
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Flo Heisenbrain
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Clipper wrote:
Digimortal wrote:
I hope so to, pretty sure 1/25 chance is not a 2% chance, sorry getting off topic.

He said about half of a 1 in 25 chance, and half of 1/25 is 2%

But yes, the smiley in the post thankfully allows us to avoid the Poe's Law situation that is under discussion .



For me the in question was placed too late and made it not that obvious. I mean if someone wrote
someone wrote:
I would say a 50% chance is fairly rare.
I'd get that^^

 
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chang chang

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Heisenbrain wrote:
Carcking wrote:
chang_1910 wrote:
my solution? simple, when they dark ritual = resolve one zombie spawn at red level in the zone they pass each other. Because I liked that when 2 necro run into each other they should do something cool.

This sounds like a fun option. After the Red spawn the Necros are removed from the board as normal? Do their spawn tokens remain?

I think they live on, trying to get to the nearest exit as normal. You still have to kill them to prevent their spawn tokens getting permanent.


yea, as @Flo said. They still want to escape. I like everything else about the necromancers, they just needed a tweak

We also have REALLY BAD luck on the drawns.. and we have lost 2 games because playing with 3 mini necromancer, we tend to have at least 2 of them on the board; and then drawn 3-5 necro cards and they extra activate, extra activate, extra activate, escape LOL LOL LOL. Looking at the scenarios, the "when a necro escape with 6 or more spawn tokens the game is lost" .. in most scenarios means that in average 2 necro escape; hence we just change it to that. Our game read: "when the second necro escape you lose"

this removed or greatly decrease all that randomness frustrated jumbo

Beckikaze wrote:
It is totally broken. Unlucky card draws destroy a 2 1/2 hours game in a second without any chance to prevent that.

For that rule alone, the game was fired from my shelf. Bad playtesting after all these years, sorry.


yea, nothing to apologies for. GG should be MUCH better at either playtesting or following on their results / notes. It took us 1 read at the rulebook to suspect this and 1 gameplay to know it needed fix.. and 2 more gameplay to banned it LOL

but as you can see above, I agree with how broken that is. But otherwise the game is actually really fun. give it a chance.. or not but

mournful wrote:
Clipper wrote:
At least it's an extremely easy rule to just ignore.

And that's the saving grace of this series for me. Whenever they drop the ball, I either kick it over the fence or replace it with a better ball.


BEST way to describe and put this. LOL LOL
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Heisenbrain wrote:
Carcking wrote:
chang_1910 wrote:
my solution? simple, when they dark ritual = resolve one zombie spawn at red level in the zone they pass each other. Because I liked that when 2 necro run into each other they should do something cool.

This sounds like a fun option. After the Red spawn the Necros are removed from the board as normal? Do their spawn tokens remain?

I think they live on, trying to get to the nearest exit as normal. You still have to kill them to prevent their spawn tokens getting permanent.

But if they live on they create a dark ritual every round because they are moving together toward the same exit spawn token. So a Red spawn every round? That would leave quite a trail and could be deadly when you're in the Blue :/
 
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chang chang

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Carcking wrote:
Heisenbrain wrote:
Carcking wrote:
chang_1910 wrote:
my solution? simple, when they dark ritual = resolve one zombie spawn at red level in the zone they pass each other. Because I liked that when 2 necro run into each other they should do something cool.

This sounds like a fun option. After the Red spawn the Necros are removed from the board as normal? Do their spawn tokens remain?

I think they live on, trying to get to the nearest exit as normal. You still have to kill them to prevent their spawn tokens getting permanent.

But if they live on they create a dark ritual every round because they are moving together toward the same exit spawn token. So a Red spawn every round? That would leave quite a trail and could be deadly when you're in the Blue :/


well, a few thing:
- they have to come from a different spawn zone (sorry, we moded that right away on the ritual; I should have mentioned, but we change this one gameplay one, so by now in my head that is how the dark ritual was written )
- also note that this just trigger when they pass each other. think of it as:

necro a: sup dude
necro b: /smirks
necro a and b: high five
BOOM!
lol (yea that is exactly how we envision this LOL )

we play with some other options, I`ll mention in case you like them more:
When they pass each other..
- all zombies in within range 1 gets an extra activation. This worked well for blue-yellow. orange got REALLY crazy. (fun, but way too crazy)
- all abominations get an extra activation (was meh at blue level)
- spawn an abomination (we play with a max of 2 abomination as bosses in single game; and depending on quest in campaign we have a cap; so this didn't really work well)

we also put all this in a table, roll D4 and that happened. But my bf though it was too much; I agreed. we simplified as the red level thing

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Peter Cooper
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You should never say 'sup dude' out loud - it is a very dangerous dark spell.
 
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Sebastian Beck
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Clipper wrote:
Beckikaze wrote:
For that rule alone, the game was fired from my shelf. Bad playtesting after all these years, sorry.

Wouldn't it just fire the expansion, or the extra Kickstarter components, from your shelf? The Cabal rules can't be activated with the base game's components after all...

Having said that, I do agree they really dropped the ball in the playtesting on that one rule. It's odd that they stand behind it with no sign of budging too, but perhaps that has something to do with it being one of the features touted during the Kickstarter campaign. At least it's an extremely easy rule to just ignore.



The KS (and expansion) stuff was most important for me because I find the base game a step back from the original. Too easy, too predictable.

Finding out, that the new key mechanism of the necromancers did not work as designed killed the whole game for me. I am done with the franchise.

It was a great time but the designers are really not able to...

a) create something new
b) create something actually not broken (Season 2 the 1st time, BP the 2nd time)

Sad.
 
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