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Subject: Clinton goes with the safe choice: it's Kaine. rss

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Trey Chambers
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I see why. It will be very, very hard for Trump to win if she wins VA. Or if by some miracle Trump wins PA, that can make up for much of that loss. With him on the ticket, winning VA is almost assured. And it doesn't cost them a Senate seat like Brown or Warren.

But, meh, he is pretty lame in comparison to some of the other choices. Sound strategy though.
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Wendell
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Your points are all valid. And he passes the "could he be a credible president" test (as does Pence, much as I don't like him).
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Trey Chambers
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wifwendell wrote:
Your points are all valid. And he passes the "could he be a credible president" test (as does Pence, much as I don't like him).


Funny enough, a Kaine vs. Pence election would be a normal election and not the shit show we have now between hated candidates.
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Xander Fulton
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wifwendell wrote:
Your points are all valid. And he passes the "could he be a credible president" test (as does Pence, much as I don't like him).


It's true - neither picked a particularly batshit-insane VP this time.

(Man, Sarah Palin is going to hang over that VP selection process forever, ain't she?)
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Trey Chambers
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XanderF wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Your points are all valid. And he passes the "could he be a credible president" test (as does Pence, much as I don't like him).


It's true - neither picked a particularly batshit-insane VP this time.

(Man, Sarah Palin is going to hang over that VP selection process forever, ain't she?)


There's a great movie about Palin called Game Change. It's on HBO. I highly recommend it for political junkies.
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Professor of Pain
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This is a boring, safe choice that doesn't do anything for Clinton and may actually discourage progressives.

shake
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Xander Fulton
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Elfbane wrote:
This is a boring, safe choice that doesn't do anything for Clinton and may actually discourage progressives.

shake


Given the announcement isn't even an hour old, the level of analysis on it is pretty thin, so far, but...

...the gist seems to be that she isn't worried about the progressives. They are getting petrified by the idea of what-they-see-as-LITERALLY-HITLER gaining power, and would vote for Dubya Bush again to stop that from happening, if they had to, so she's got their vote locked in (as long as they bother to show up).

What Kaine brings her is some credentials in the rust belt and Midwest states, where she currently is comparatively weak compared to Trump.

So...it might actually be the right choice for her.
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Trey Chambers
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Elfbane wrote:
This is a boring, safe choice that doesn't do anything for Clinton and may actually discourage progressives.

shake


I think any losses in progressives will be made up for by moderates and independents she brings back into the fold with this pick. His resume is impressive (seriously, look it up) and is fairly moderate and not polarizing like Trump and Clinton.

More importantly, all but the dumbest of progressives are scared enough of a Trump Presidency they will vote for Clinton in the end. Nader votes swinging Florida in 2000 should weigh heavily on their minds.
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Junior McSpiffy
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XanderF wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Your points are all valid. And he passes the "could he be a credible president" test (as does Pence, much as I don't like him).


It's true - neither picked a particularly batshit-insane VP this time.

(Man, Sarah Palin is going to hang over that VP selection process forever, ain't she?)


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Junior McSpiffy
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Elfbane wrote:
This is a boring, safe choice that doesn't do anything for Clinton and may actually discourage progressives.

shake


You know why you go with the safe choice? Because you are so far out in front you can afford to be safe. It's why you don't see golfers taking wild shots at the pin when they are three shots up on the field. Just land it in the fairway and trust that those who are chasing you will botch it in how they have to overextend themselves.
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Not a good choice. A great choice. Moderate. Accomplished. Helps Clinton. Keeps Virginia tacking Democratic.

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Shampoo4you wrote:
XanderF wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Your points are all valid. And he passes the "could he be a credible president" test (as does Pence, much as I don't like him).


It's true - neither picked a particularly batshit-insane VP this time.

(Man, Sarah Palin is going to hang over that VP selection process forever, ain't she?)


There's a great movie about Palin called Game Change. It's on HBO. I highly recommend it for political junkies.


While Julianne Moore is great, I think the book is even better
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Trey Chambers
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SpaceGhost wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
XanderF wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Your points are all valid. And he passes the "could he be a credible president" test (as does Pence, much as I don't like him).


It's true - neither picked a particularly batshit-insane VP this time.

(Man, Sarah Palin is going to hang over that VP selection process forever, ain't she?)


There's a great movie about Palin called Game Change. It's on HBO. I highly recommend it for political junkies.


While Julianne Moore is great, I think the book is even better


Yea I really need to get that.
 
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Elfbane wrote:
This is a boring, safe choice that doesn't do anything for Clinton and may actually discourage progressives.

shake


She doesn't need to do shit to get progressives. She can plow on back over to center-right just as soon as the DNC is over.
 
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Chad Ellis
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A lot of Sanders supporters and folks on the far left have been saying that her VP choice will show how serious she is about unity and earning the votes of Sander's supporters. I personally think that that would be one of the worst ways to choose a VP.

Aside from electoral calculations, a VP should strengthen the administration and be able to represent the President fully -- as right-hand person and/or stand-in. The last thing you want is someone who was picked because he or she is from a different wing of the party, with their own agenda and own loyalties.

I don't know a ton about Kaine, but it seems pretty clear that he can be her #2 in a way that Warren or one of the "make Bernie's folks happy" candidates probably couldn't. He'll let her set policy and he'll execute on it and advise.
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Brian S.
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Not even yet elected and already disappointing.
 
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Professor of Pain
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
A lot of Sanders supporters and folks on the far left have been saying that her VP choice will show how serious she is about unity and earning the votes of Sander's supporters. I personally think that that would be one of the worst ways to choose a VP.

Aside from electoral calculations, a VP should strengthen the administration and be able to represent the President fully -- as right-hand person and/or stand-in. The last thing you want is someone who was picked because he or she is from a different wing of the party, with their own agenda and own loyalties.

I don't know a ton about Kaine, but it seems pretty clear that he can be her #2 in a way that Warren or one of the "make Bernie's folks happy" candidates probably couldn't. He'll let her set policy and he'll execute on it and advise.

Except that it doesn't excite, and excite is what gets people to volunteer and donate and GOTV.
 
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Professor of Pain
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I'll quote Kos on why I think this isn't a great choice:

My problem with Kaine is that the Clinton campaign, rather than use this pick to excite the party and truly bring it together, now has to deal with new discontent and anger, and will waste how many weeks convincing people that Kaine isn’t all that bad...

...we’re relitigating the primary wars, and really, who the fuck had the energy to do that? Remember, there were two big objections to Clinton — Wall Street and Trade. Kaine is great on all those other things except … Wall Street and Trade. Clinton literally just reinforced and validated the primary arguments against her.

But let’s also not lose perspective. This isn’t the end of the world, and the VP doesn’t wag the president’s tail.
 
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David desJardins
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I'm pleased with choice of Tim Kaine. Very reasonable and balanced and capable of being President if necessary (which I wouldn't say of some other candidates that Hillary was reportedly considering). I've met Tim many times, most recently a few months ago in Palo Alto. If I had a criticism of him it would be that he takes credit a little too glibly for the strong economy in Virginia, which is largely a result of the proximity of the federal government and couldn't really be reproduced elsewhere. Still, my philosophy is to accept credit when you can, as you'll often get blamed for things outside your control.

This is an interesting anecdote from the NYT story on Kaine:

In 2009, under intense pressure from abortion rights advocates and his own aides to veto a bill allowing “Choose Life” license plates, Mr. Kaine signed it anyway, arguing that it would lay the constitutional groundwork for abortion rights advocates to get their own license plate.

“We were all focused on how we were going to get hammered by signing this thing,” Wayne Turnage, his former chief of staff, recalled, “and he was three steps in front of us.”


I hadn't heard this before, but it does sound like Tim. I don't think he would think "groundwork for abortion rights advocates to get their own license plate" as much as he would think "let people express their opinions, what's the problem with that?" But he might use the former argument to assuage the abortion rights groups.

The left-wing groups don't think he's progressive enough, which of course makes me like the choice more.

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If nothing else, Clinton's nomination and the selection of Kaine for VP demonstrates that the Democratic Party is still controlled by its centrists. Of course, many of those are former liberal Republicans who are aghast at where that party has gone.

whistle

Even Bill Buckley would be ashamed of today's Republicans in general and revolted by Trump in particular. If we ever reach the point of single-party rule in this country, it will not be the result of a hostile takeover by bush-league right-wingers and their sycophantic followers. Certain posters who spam us with feeds from Right Wing Watch will be secretly disappointed to see the Democratic Party emerge as the only electable alternative.

Conservatives will then blame Democrats for "controlling" Hollywood and the media and for buying votes by creating the culture of entitlement. In truth, it will happen because Republicans have marginalized themselves to the point of irrelevance.

All motion is relative. When your party stands for a return to the 19th century both culturally and economically, you have moved 150 years away from the rest of the citizens and voters.

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Bojan Ramadanovic
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From everything I can see I really like this guy.
This choice increased my confidence in Hillary as well.
Not pandering to the wingnuts bodes well for her presidency.
For the first time I think ever I genuinely think that Democrats are party to vote for, more or less across the board - and that the best hope for reasonable center to center right in US lies with the Democrat party.

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Elfbane wrote:
I'll quote Kos on why I think this isn't a great choice:

My problem with Kaine is that the Clinton campaign, rather than use this pick to excite the party and truly bring it together, now has to deal with new discontent and anger, and will waste how many weeks convincing people that Kaine isn’t all that bad...

...we’re relitigating the primary wars, and really, who the fuck had the energy to do that? Remember, there were two big objections to Clinton — Wall Street and Trade. Kaine is great on all those other things except … Wall Street and Trade. Clinton literally just reinforced and validated the primary arguments against her.

But let’s also not lose perspective. This isn’t the end of the world, and the VP doesn’t wag the president’s tail.

Welcome to not the end of the world. You can vote Clinton/Kaine, two or three steps removed from what you want; or you can vote Trump/Pence.

Trump assures us that he can channel The Twilight Zone, rub his magic lamp, and return us to the 1950s. To assist in that effort, he's chosen a running mate who seems to believe we're still living in the 1950s. Pence is against sex education, against Planned Parenthood, against gay rights, against pollution regulation, and even against reducing or eliminating jail time for marijuana offenses. He's also claimed that Global Warming is a myth and is a former member of the Tea Party caucus. Given that Trump is more than a little fuzzy on details, it's reasonable to assume that he'll adopt the role of Decider in Chief and leave those fuzzy details to people like the Vice-President. The one who acts like it's still 1959, the year he was born, and The Twilight Zone has just premiered.

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James King
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Mike Pence Does NOT Pass The Credible Would-Be President Or Vice President Test


wifwendell wrote:
Your points are all valid. And he passes the "could he be a credible president" test (as does Pence, much as I don't like him).

On the contrary, Mike Pence does NOT pass the Credible Would-Be President or Vice President Test.

While he was in Congress, Pence obsessed about outlawing abortion. He never introduced a bill of his own that ever got passed.

As governor, Pence obsessed about outlawing abortion and legislating discrimination against LGBT folks.

And get this: Mike Pence believes women shouldn't be allowed to service in the military service in any capacity -- not even in any support capacity. Some years ago, Mike Pence even went so far to discredit women in the service by lambasting Disney's "Mulan" as "liberal propaganda".

But, oh well, what else do you expect of a Dominionist?






> Excerpts from the July 17, 2016 BuzzFeed news story by Andrew Kaczynski entitled:

Mike Pence Argued In An Opinion Column That Disney’sMulanWas Liberal Propaganda Because He Opposes Women Serving In The Military



When Donald Trump’s running mate Mike Pence was a talk radio show host in Indiana, he wrote an op-ed declaring the film Mulan was an attempt by some “mischievous liberal” at Disney to influence the debate over women in the military.

The 1999 opinion column ran on a website for Pence’s radio program that was uncovered by BuzzFeed News.

“Despite her delicate features and voice, Disney expects us to believe that Mulan’s ingenuity and courage were enough to carry her to military success on an equal basis with her cloddish cohorts,” wrote Pence. “Obviously, this is Walt Disney’s attempt to add childhood expectation to the cultural debate over the role of women in the military.”

Disney’s film is based on the 6th-century Chinese "Ballad of Mulan".

Pence argues Mulan’s romance with a superior officer proved women cannot serve in the military....

Here’s the full text and a picture of the column on Mike Pence former radio show's webite:














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David desJardins
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Elfbane wrote:
I'll quote Kos on why I think this isn't a great choice:


To me, that's kind of like quoting Sarah Palin.
 
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David desJardins
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A good article on Tim Kaine:

Kaine email trove shows media-savvy micromanager
 
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