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Subject: WikiLeaks DNC E-mails rss

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Daniel
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Proving what many already knew. DNC operatives were actively engaged in applying anti-Bern cream and making sure Hillary was the chosen one.

https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/22/wikileaks-publishes-thou...
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Daniel
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The beginning of Hillary leaks?



https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/756465396421652481
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Josh
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I suppose Wikileaks has taken a side in the election.
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Kelsey Rinella
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I would very much like this to be the end of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz's tenure. I finally soured on the DNC when they changed the rules to keep Larry Lessig out of the debates, so this doesn't change my view, really. But it'd be nice if someone with integrity were involved.
 
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David desJardins
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There's less dirt here than I would have expected. I am no fan of DWS, but the most damning things seems to be some people saying, "Look, here's how we could hurt Bernie," and others responding, "No, we're going to stay neutral." Isn't that what is supposed to happen?
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Kelsey Rinella
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DaviddesJ wrote:
There's less dirt here than I would have expected. I am no fan of DWS, but the most damning things seems to be some people saying, "Look, here's how we could hurt Bernie," and others responding, "No, we're going to stay neutral." Isn't that what is supposed to happen?


The first step there seems to me like it really isn't.
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David desJardins
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rinelk wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
There's less dirt here than I would have expected. I am no fan of DWS, but the most damning things seems to be some people saying, "Look, here's how we could hurt Bernie," and others responding, "No, we're going to stay neutral." Isn't that what is supposed to happen?


The first step there seems to me like it really isn't.


I may not understand your position. Neutrality means not helping either side, but surely it doesn't mean not *thinking* about what would help either side. It's no secret that most of the DNC officials (just like the large majority of Democratic Party elected officials) favored Hillary over Bernie. There's certainly nothing wrong with them *thinking* things that they don't actually *do*?
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Kelsey Rinella
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DaviddesJ wrote:
rinelk wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
There's less dirt here than I would have expected. I am no fan of DWS, but the most damning things seems to be some people saying, "Look, here's how we could hurt Bernie," and others responding, "No, we're going to stay neutral." Isn't that what is supposed to happen?


The first step there seems to me like it really isn't.


I may not understand your position. Neutrality means not helping either side, but surely it doesn't mean not *thinking* about what would help either side. It's no secret that most of the DNC officials (just like the large majority of Democratic Party elected officials) favored Hillary over Bernie. There's certainly nothing wrong with them *thinking* things that they don't actually *do*?


My understanding (and I've read only snippets, so this may be in error) is that they not only thought them, they proposed those plans to others in the expectation that they would at least be considered. Given that the DNC straightforwardly lied about the rules for inclusion in debates to the Lessig campaign, the expectation that underhanded maneuvers to hurt the chances of less-favored candidates might be considered seems justified.

I would have no problem with Biden supporters thinking, in 2009, that the country would be in better hands if President Obama died. I would have a serious problem with them proposing a plan to others in which they explained how they might help bring about his death. This is true even if those others talked them out of it. If the leaked emails communicated a fervent wish that Hillary Clinton should win, but also a commitment on the part of all staff to run an unbiased contest, it wouldn't be news. But the fact that some DNC staff were actively seeking ways to undermine Sanders does make it impossible to believe that everyone at the DNC felt such a commitment to fairness. That's problematic not just because of the fear that these individuals may have engaged in unsanctioned attempts to undermine Sanders, but also because it impugns the institutional culture of the DNC. It ought to be obvious to everyone that their job is to run a primary with integrity. That's the job of the DNC chair.
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
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The DNC discussing how to hinder a man who is not a Democrat from hijacking their primary.

Yeah. That's sinister.
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David desJardins
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rinelk wrote:
But the fact that some DNC staff were actively seeking ways to undermine Sanders does make it impossible to believe that everyone at the DNC felt such a commitment to fairness. That's problematic not just because of the fear that these individuals may have engaged in unsanctioned attempts to undermine Sanders, but also because it impugns the institutional culture of the DNC. It ought to be obvious to everyone that their job is to run a primary with integrity. That's the job of the DNC chair.


Seriously? These are political operatives. They know nothing but schemes. That's their life. If you're looking for people with an impassive commitment to justice then you aren't going to find any of those in any political party. Do you ever watch Veep?
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jeremy cobert
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Koldfoot wrote:
The DNC discussing how to hinder a man who is not a Democrat from hijacking their primary.

Yeah. That's sinister.


True and fair, but the methods they use are an interesting note on the way they do business. Using religion as a wedge issue and stirring up their KKK/racist allies in these southern states speak volumes to me.

Quote:
From:MARSHALL@dnc.org
To: MirandaL@dnc.org, PaustenbachM@dnc.org, DaceyA@dnc.org
Date: 2016-05-05 03:31
Subject: No shit
It might may no difference, but for KY and WVA can we get someone to ask his belief. Does he believe in a God. He had skated on saying he has a Jewish heritage. I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.


If that had been a GOP email, shit would have hit the fan.
Democrats be like , Meh.
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Mac Mcleod
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I have no words for my outrage...











#Dirtypoliticsisdirty #Whereisyouroutrage
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Kelsey Rinella
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DaviddesJ wrote:
rinelk wrote:
But the fact that some DNC staff were actively seeking ways to undermine Sanders does make it impossible to believe that everyone at the DNC felt such a commitment to fairness. That's problematic not just because of the fear that these individuals may have engaged in unsanctioned attempts to undermine Sanders, but also because it impugns the institutional culture of the DNC. It ought to be obvious to everyone that their job is to run a primary with integrity. That's the job of the DNC chair.


Seriously? These are political operatives. They know nothing but schemes. That's their life. If you're looking for people with an impassive commitment to justice then you aren't going to find any of those in any political party. Do you ever watch Veep?


I don't mind them scheming about lots of things. Some things should be off the table. Nobody minds if their plans for doing their jobs well are intricate or devious. It's when they appear to be trying hard not to do their jobs that we think they were ill-chosen.
 
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David desJardins
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rinelk wrote:
I don't mind them scheming about lots of things. Some things should be off the table. Nobody minds if their plans for doing their jobs well are intricate or devious. It's when they appear to be trying hard not to do their jobs that we think they were ill-chosen.


The Chinese dynasties tried populating their staffs entirely with eunuchs, so they wouldn't have dynastic ambitions. Yet they still were rife with intrigue and scheming. I think the idea that you're going to build a political apparatus with political operatives and they aren't going to think like political operatives is absurd. The most you can hope for is that they will in one way or another be restrained from actual misdeeds, which seems to be what happened here.
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T
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Koldfoot wrote:
The DNC Any party discussing how to hinder a man who is not a Democrat from their party from hijacking their primary.

Yeah. That's sinister.


FTFY
 
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Kelsey Rinella
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DaviddesJ wrote:
rinelk wrote:
I don't mind them scheming about lots of things. Some things should be off the table. Nobody minds if their plans for doing their jobs well are intricate or devious. It's when they appear to be trying hard not to do their jobs that we think they were ill-chosen.


The Chinese dynasties tried populating their staffs entirely with eunuchs, so they wouldn't have dynastic ambitions. Yet they still were rife with intrigue and scheming. I think the idea that you're going to build a political apparatus with political operatives and they aren't going to think like political operatives is absurd. The most you can hope for is that they will in one way or another be restrained from actual misdeeds, which seems to be what happened here.


I concede that I am more optimistic about people than what I see on the news would support. If political operatives can't do this job, they should hire people who aren't political operatives.

EDIT to add that I'm not optimistic enough about people to think Sanders would be able to govern well.
 
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David desJardins
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rinelk wrote:
If political operatives can't do this job, they should hire people who aren't political operatives.


They did the job, right? You aren't complaining about anything they *did*. You're only complaining about what they *thought*. That's kind of ridiculous. Honestly, it's a standard no one could meet. If you wiretapped the phones and emails of Supreme Court justices and clerks, and surveilled them with parabolic mikes, you'd find them saying intemperate things too.

There's a reason that George Orwell imagined a dystopia based around policing people's thoughts and not just their actions.
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Kelsey Rinella
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DaviddesJ wrote:
rinelk wrote:
If political operatives can't do this job, they should hire people who aren't political operatives.


They did the job, right? You aren't complaining about anything they *did*. You're only complaining about what they *thought*. That's kind of ridiculous. Honestly, it's a standard no one could meet. If you wiretapped the phones and emails of Supreme Court justices and clerks, and surveilled them with parabolic mikes, you'd find them saying intemperate things too.

There's a reason that George Orwell imagined a dystopia based around policing people's thoughts and not just their actions.


Is there something I can write to make it clear that it ISN'T just their thoughts which bother me? Because that was how you characterized this before, and I objected to it then and explained why. To reiterate: the act which bothers me is sharing a plan to undermine Sanders because of his religious views. I have no problem with any individual entertaining that plan. I have a problem with the prior actions which caused that person to make that proposal.

I could meet my standard. I am confident several people of my acquaintance could, too.
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David desJardins
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rinelk wrote:
Is there something I can write to make it clear that it ISN'T just their thoughts which bother me? Because that was how you characterized this before, and I objected to it then and explained why. To reiterate: the act which bothers me is sharing a plan to undermine Sanders because of his religious views. I have no problem with any individual entertaining that plan. I have a problem with the prior actions which caused that person to make that proposal.


This is clear as mud to me. I literally have no idea what you're talking about. What are "the prior actions which caused that person to make that proposal"? As far as I can see from the emails, (1) almost everyone in senior positions at the DNC preferred Hillary to Sanders [not surprising], (2) almost everyone in senior positions at the DNC had a long history as political operatives [not surprising], and (3) people at the DNC shared the kinds of ideas that political operatives have about how to get what they want, but didn't act on them because of neutrality.

I see absolutely nothing to object to here except the ideas and thoughts. So when you say you aren't policing ideas or thoughts, I'm bewildered as to what it is you actually are complaining about.
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Kelsey Rinella
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DaviddesJ wrote:
rinelk wrote:
Is there something I can write to make it clear that it ISN'T just their thoughts which bother me? Because that was how you characterized this before, and I objected to it then and explained why. To reiterate: the act which bothers me is sharing a plan to undermine Sanders because of his religious views. I have no problem with any individual entertaining that plan. I have a problem with the prior actions which caused that person to make that proposal.


This is clear as mud to me. I literally have no idea what you're talking about. What are "the prior actions which caused that person to make that proposal"? As far as I can see from the emails, (1) almost everyone in senior positions at the DNC preferred Hillary to Sanders [not surprising], (2) almost everyone in senior positions at the DNC had a long history as political operatives [not surprising], and (3) people at the DNC shared the kinds of ideas that political operatives have about how to get what they want, but didn't act on them because of neutrality.

I see absolutely nothing to object to here except the ideas and thoughts. So when you say you aren't policing ideas or thoughts, I'm bewildered as to what it is you actually are complaining about.


Sharing isn't thinking, it's acting. The prior actions which made it seem like this proposal was reasonable to share are not known to me, except the sleazy rule change to exclude Lessig. But people's ideas about what their employer wants come from actions taken or omitted by that employer. Your (2) above doesn't bother me unless that history as political operatives makes them unable to do their jobs, which involve creating and supporting a process by which voters can fairly choose a candidate. If they are unable to express a commitment to that job clearly enough that emails like this don't get sent, they are not competent to do the job.

Crap like this hurts fundraising, party unity, and the power of the Democratic Party. If you can be cynical enough to think it's unreasonable to expect they won't try to corrupt the process, can't you also be cynical enough to see it as a blunder to write anything in an email which would hurt the party if that email were leaked? Shouldn't a person with a long story as a political operative understand that being seen to value impartiality in the process is part of the DNC's job?
 
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David Hoffman
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Some folks want to hold people in positions of power to unrealistic standards of behavior. They apply idealized notions of right and wrong to flawed humans and then are shocked -- shocked! -- when those expectations are not met.

Adjusting expectations can really help get you through the day.
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Junior McSpiffy
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rinelk wrote:
Sharing isn't thinking, it's acting.


Don't think of a pink elephant.
 
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Mike Stiles
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The best twist of this, imo, is the bit about how lots of folks think the Russians were berhind the hack and the leak because they're hyped at the prospect of a Trump presidency.
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David desJardins
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rinelk wrote:
Sharing isn't thinking, it's acting.


This sounds very Big Brother to me. The thought police in 1984 weren't reading minds, they were just policing everything that people say, no matter to whom or in public or private. Judging people on what they say and claiming that speaking is "acting" seems fundamentally wrong to me. Probably there's no point in us discussing this further.

Quote:
If you can be cynical enough to think it's unreasonable to expect they won't try to corrupt the process, can't you also be cynical enough to see it as a blunder to write anything in an email which would hurt the party if that email were leaked?


Of course these people are fools and hacks. Doesn't that go without saying? The officers of a political party are always that, and especially if you put someone like Debbie Wasserman Schulz in charge. I thought we were discussing the impact of these leaks *relative to expectations*. The expectations certainly don't include competence or good judgment.
 
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Kelsey Rinella
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ohbalto wrote:
Some folks want to hold people in positions of power to unrealistic standards of behavior. They apply idealized notions of right and wrong to flawed humans and then are shocked -- shocked! -- when those expectations are not met.


I'm generally friendly to this concern. I see it a lot with teachers, honestly--people expect anyone who works with kids to be not just amazing, but magnificently bland. But when I think about all the things which could generate calls for a teacher to be fired, like hiring an escort or smoking the occasional joint or having a gambling problem, none of those are the sorts of things at issue here.

The job of the DNC is to make Democrats more powerful. Being seen to be more committed to their candidate preference than to a fair selection process alienates voters and makes the Democrats less powerful. Being seen to be willing to attack anyone for inadequate commitment to organized religion alienates voters. Most RSP posters can understand that, so it doesn't seem like too high a standard to expect the staff of the DNC to.
 
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