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Star Trek: Ascendancy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Klingon Ability "Ever Victorious" - What constitutes "defeat"? rss

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Nova Cat
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Quote:
Take 1 Culture when you defeat 3 or more ships in a Battle.


If a Klingon fleet attacks 3 or more of your ships, and you retreat, do those ships count as defeated? The attacking ships are certainly "victorious" when the enemy retreats, but I can find no definition within the rulebook regarding whether or not retreating ships are considered "defeated" for the purposes of the Klingon ability.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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i do think it means you destroyed those ships and won the battle as well. if you destroyed less than 3 ships it doesnt count, forcing a retreat isnt sufficient.
given they use "..in a battle.." i do think the defeat is directed at the ships, not just at the battle itself.

if they meant you fought against 3 or more ships but didnt necessarily destroy them, then it should be worded differently like "take 1 culture when you win a battle against 3 or more ships" but that would be a bit easy as you could possibly do it several times in a row if those ships dont need to be destroyed.
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Nova Cat
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You think the Klingons need to win the battle as well? I hadn't considered that interpretation.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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i think so, otherwise they should just say kill or destroy instead of defeat, no? it seems to imply winning the battle as well.
at least, the klingons cant retreat from battle so either some ships survive/win or all got destroyed

though, im starting to wonder as it seems they write the rules more open-ended given their interpretation of the "add/remove ships to a fleet" question in another thread.

and in case of a mutual destruction, do you get the bonus? ie all klingon ships and rival ships are destroyed in the same round, do you get the bonus or not given they didnt survive?
we may need a faq ruling here.

i wished they would have written the rules a bit more unambiguous...
 
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Alex Almond
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If the enemy runs it's clearly a defeat.

In the case of a draw it maybe be down to who was the attacker/defender, or it may not count at all it does want clarifying really.
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John Godwin
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I think it means you have to destroy 3 or more ships. And I think you have to have at least 1 surviving ship yourself. But the enemy can retreat as long as you destroy 3+ ships before they do.

I seriously doubt that every time the Roms run away from a fight the Klingons will get 1 culture. That would be insanely powerful and would negate most of the Romulan's tactics in favor of the Klingons winning the game easily.
 
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Alex Almond
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If your referring to the Romulan Advanced Cloaking Device, the Romulans don't retreat, the battle is cancelled.
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Will

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Angelsenior wrote:
i do think it means you destroyed those ships and won the battle as well.

I would agree with this interpretation. What if you destroy 3 ships, but it costs the ridgeheads their entire force of 5 ships? That may be a major setback to the other side, but I doubt it would qualify for the bonus.
 
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Gale Force Nine LLC
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Alex is correct, if the enemy runs, it is a defeat and he is correct in pointing out how the Romulan Advanced Cloaking Device works. Songs will be sung of the cunning warriors who forced their foes from the battlefield.

In the cases of mutual total destruction, both sides are considered ‘defeated’. However, as long as three enemy ships were destroyed, the Klingon’s ‘Ever Victorous” rule will still apply. Great will be the songs that tell the tale of how brave warriors sacrificed themselves, destroying their foes as they themselves died in glorious combat.
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Angelus Seniores
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so it works in both ways?

-you destroy 3 or more ships regardless of the battle outcome
or
-you force 3 or more ships to retreat but didnt necessarily destroy 3 ships?

-would a combined result work as well? you attack 3 ships, kill 2 of them and force the remaining 1 to retreat?
 
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Alex Almond
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Your overcomplicating it.

There are 2 conditions to gain the culture.

1. Is there 3 or more enemy ships at the start of the combat. Destroy/Retreat doesn't matter.

2. Was the enemy fleet defeated? In the case of a draw as both sides are defeated you gain the culture.
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Angelus Seniores
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ok, yes that sounds right
 
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Dustin Shunta
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Darkmancer wrote:
Your overcomplicating it.

There are 2 conditions to gain the culture.

1. Is there 3 or more enemy ships at the start of the combat. Destroy/Retreat doesn't matter.

2. Was the enemy fleet defeated? In the case of a draw as both sides are defeated you gain the culture.


This seems to extend beyond what the GF9 post above states.

What happens in this scenario?

10 Romulan ships attack a sector with 7 Klingon ships. All 7 Klingon ships are defeated. 8 Romulan ships are defeated. Does Ever Victorious trigger?
 
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Nova Cat
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I would say yes.
 
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Alex Almond
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No the Romulan fleet was not defeated as there are still ships remaining.

A costly victory is still a victory.
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Nova Cat
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Darkmancer wrote:
No the Romulan fleet was not defeated as there are still ships remaining.

A costly victory is still a victory.

But the destroyed ships were defeated, even though the fleet as a whole was not.
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Grish
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Novacat wrote:
Darkmancer wrote:
No the Romulan fleet was not defeated as there are still ships remaining.

A costly victory is still a victory.

But the destroyed ships were defeated, even though the fleet as a whole was not.


Man I wrote such a long post and deleted it by mistake! Bah. Anyway, I gave this some thought...

There is no term "defeat" in the rulebook. That's the problem with this rule's wording.

Take 1 culture when you defeat 3 or more ships in a battle.

What's a defeat? Nobody knows. whistle

However, with GF9's clarification, we know that to "defeat a ship" isn't to "destroy a ship" or to "hit a ship."

They should create a glossary of terms with defeat in it.

Defeat: If an opponent is eliminated or routed during a space battle, he suffers a defeat.

Problem solved. Or just write a clearer rule using proper terminology.
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George
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There actually is a definition of "winning" on pg 18:

Quote:
The player who destroys all their rival's Ships or forces them into Retreat wins the Space Battle.

Therefore, to defeat 3 or more ships, is to win against 3 or more ships. I.E. face 3 or more ships and destroy all or force them to retreat.


For a definition of "loser" or to be defeated, it would be the opposite: the player whose ships are all destroyed or forced into retreat loses the Space Battle.

Basically, what Grish (R2EQ) said.

(And notice with that definition, both players can "lose" with total annihilation, which GF9 nicely confirmed.)

Edit: Bolded "all".
 
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Dustin Shunta
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The issue as I see it is that the second paragraph of GF9's post doesn't make any sense unless it matters that your opponent lost the space battle.

Specifically, the GF9 post states that "both sides are considered defeated". This would only matter if "defeat" modifies the battle as a whole, and not just the 3 or more ships. Otherwise, why would it even matter that both sides are defeated in a mutual total destruction situation.

That being said, I still hope that an official FAQ makes this crystal clear. This is important rule that has a massive effect on gameplay.
 
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George
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Jimb0v wrote:
The issue as I see it is that the second paragraph of GF9's post doesn't make any sense unless it matters that your opponent lost the space battle.

Specifically, the GF9 post states that "both sides are considered defeated". This would only matter if "defeat" modifies the battle as a whole, and not just the 3 or more ships. Otherwise, why would it even matter that both sides are defeated in a mutual total destruction situation.


Yes that's it exactly. Defeat implies winning the battle as a whole. They could have just said destroy if it was just eliminating ships.

The 3 or more ships is just to make sure it's a big enough battle to be significant.
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Angelus Seniores
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Jimb0v wrote:
The issue as I see it is that the second paragraph of GF9's post doesn't make any sense unless it matters that your opponent lost the space battle.

Specifically, the GF9 post states that "both sides are considered defeated". This would only matter if "defeat" modifies the battle as a whole, and not just the 3 or more ships. Otherwise, why would it even matter that both sides are defeated in a mutual total destruction situation.

That being said, I still hope that an official FAQ makes this crystal clear. This is important rule that has a massive effect on gameplay.


it is indeed important that your opponent loses the battle to trigger the effect, it doesnt work if they win.
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