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Mare Nostrum: Empires» Forums » Rules

Subject: Medusa Use by Attacking Player rss

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John Smid
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Haledon
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We had a situation in which Rome with Medusa attacked Babylon on Syracuse. This led to a discussion. Can Medusa be used by an attacking player in which all the defender's pieces would be petrified? Only the attacker would roll battle dice?
 
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Richard Shipley
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After reading through this forum, this is my understanding. This is how petrifaction is discribed in the French version of the rules.
Medusa & Medea: The Petrify power essentially makes the petrified Units invisible for game purposes. It is as if the petrified Units did not exist in the province or sea area. The ability affects all Units of one opponent, so if more than one opponent’s Units are present in the Province, you choose one opponent as the target, leaving the Units of the other opponent(s) unaffected.
 
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Daniel U. Thibault
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The intent, as described in the English rules, is that Medusa/Medea also affect any units of the designated player that later move into the province (in the same turn).
 
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John Smid
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Thanks for the input. Still looking for some clarification. Another way to look at this issue is whether it is played during the active player's attacking turn as an offensive weapon or during the opponent's attacking turn as a defensive weapon or both.
 
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Daniel U. Thibault
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Tirailleur wrote:
Thanks for the input. Still looking for some clarification. Another way to look at this issue is whether it is played during the active player's attacking turn as an offensive weapon or during the opponent's attacking turn as a defensive weapon or both.


Either.
 
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Michael Wilding
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Hi John. I asked a similar question. Hopefully we get this resolved before we play again!

Others on this thread referenced the French rule book for Atlas. My French is a little rusty so I used Google translate to obtain the following translation of the French rule book.

Medusa - Once per turn, you can designate a province in
which you have at least one unit to petrify all
Units of an opponent. The units are so petrified
considered to no longer exist in this province until the end of turn. You can not use this effect in the
Province same two laps later.

Medea - Once per turn , you can designate a sea in which
you have at least a Trireme to petrify all
Triremes an opponent . The Trireme and are petrified
considered to no longer exist in this sea until the end of turn. You can not use this effect in the same
Sea two turns on.


A better understanding of French would probably help but ... if an opponent's Units / Triremes no longer exist it doesn't sound like there would be a battle. For what it is worth, this interpretation is consistent with how Medusa worked in the old version of the game.


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Daniel U. Thibault
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mwilding wrote:
My French is a little rusty so I used Google translate to obtain the following translation of the French rule book.

Medusa - Once per turn, you can designate a province in which you have at least one unit to petrify all Units of an opponent. The units are so petrified considered to no longer exist in this province until the end of turn. You can not use this effect in the Province same two laps later.


Méduse : Une fois par tour, vous pouvez désigner une Province dans laquelle vous avez au moins une Unité afin de pétrifier toutes les Unités d’un adversaire. Les Unités ainsi pétrifiées sont considérées comme n’existant plus dans cette Province jusqu’à la fin du tour de jeu. Vous ne pouvez pas utiliser cet effet dans la même Province deux tours de suite.

Yup, good translation.

mwilding wrote:
Medea - Once per turn , you can designate a sea in which
you have at least a Trireme to petrify all Triremes an opponent . The Trireme and are petrified considered to no longer exist in this sea until the end of turn. You can not use this effect in the same Sea two turns on.


Médée : Une fois par tour, vous pouvez désigner une Mer dans laquelle vous avez au moins une Trirème afin de pétrifier toutes les Trirèmes d’un adversaire. Les Trirèmes ainsi pétrifiées sont considérées comme n’existant plus dans cette Mer jusqu’à la fin du tour de jeu. Vous ne pouvez pas utiliser cet effet dans la même Mer deux tours de suite.

Also good (well, Medea and Medusa have the same effects, except a for sea vs land focus).

Which means the player's petrified units can't be involved in a battle, indeed.
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Thierry Mattray
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You can choose to launch the effect during the move & combat phase, with no more limitation, so during your phase OR an opponent phase, at your will.
It targets all the units of one opponent in one space.
If others units of the same player come in this space later in this round, they will be affected too (otherwise it's too complicated to differanciate which are affected and which are not).
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Mac Nelson
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Thank you for posting this. We had a lot of confusion with Medusa/Medea. We ruled that when two players were in a region where Medusa was used, the battle did not take place, but if we are to truly "treat it like the petrified units were not there" the attacker would take over the region (only occupied the petrified player's control marker and petrified units that "are not there") and be able to pillage, occupy buildings, or attempt to take control like any other conquered province. Can someone confirm that I'm understanding that correctly? Thanks in advance. Also, can this be added to the FAQ if it's not already there? I started there when it came up in our last game and wasn't able to find anything that provided as complete a description as the one here.
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John Smid
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If the units that are petrified cannot be attacked then there is no battle, which would imply that there had been no conquest. So would the options to pillage, occupy building(s) or occupy the control marker be permitted? Thinking out loud here.

The rules state that "an attacker becomes a Conqueror if he is the only player to have Units in an opponent-controlled province."

Perhaps an attacker can still be considered a conqueror even if there are no opponent legions in the province but the opponent has control in the province.

I can see where Medusa would have great value for a defender. He can stop an onslaught of legions into his province then build and move legions into that province on the next turn to counterattack. Not sure if it has a lot of value for an attacker.

Mike, we still have time to figure this out for the next game!
 
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Daniel U. Thibault
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If there is no third party, the Medusa owner would be left alone in the Province and could thus pillage or plunder (instantaneous effects), but if he tried to convert, the conversion would fail at the end of the turn because the petrified units would "come back". However, if the controlling player goes first and pulls out of the Province, then the conqueror maintains his status and could complete the conversion.
 
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Thierry Mattray
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Urhixidur wrote:
If there is no third party, the Medusa owner would be left alone in the Province and could thus pillage or plunder (instantaneous effects), but if he tried to convert, the conversion would fail at the end of the turn because the petrified units would "come back". However, if the controlling player goes first and pulls out of the Province, then the conqueror maintains his status and could complete the conversion.


Correct.

One more important thing : medusa power doesn't affect fortresses !
(it would be strange to pertify stones ! )
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Aron R
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Are you sure? Assuming the rule posted above is correctly copied, "units" seems distinct from "legions", so it would appear to include both. From a flavor perspective, you could say that you're petrifying the troops in the fortress, rather the fortress itself.
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Thierry Mattray
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AronR wrote:
Are you sure? Assuming the rule posted above is correctly copied, "units" seems distinct from "legions", so it would appear to include both. From a flavor perspective, you could say that you're petrifying the troops in the fortress, rather the fortress itself.


Answer from designer Serge Laget himself.

I agree there is a bad wording, as "units" include fortesses, but "legions" exclude special units (from Atlas) which are affected by Medusa power.
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Daniel U. Thibault
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tontione wrote:
One more important thing : medusa power doesn't affect fortresses !
(it would be strange to pertify stones ! )


That's not how the rules are written (it says 'Units', which includes everything). But if that's Serge's intent, it deserves an erratum.
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Thierry Mattray
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Urhixidur wrote:

That's not how the rules are written (it says 'Units', which includes everything). But if that's Serge's intent, it deserves an erratum.

Yes it does.
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Fabrizio N
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Urhixidur wrote:
If there is no third party, the Medusa owner would be left alone in the Province and could thus pillage or plunder (instantaneous effects), but if he tried to convert, the conversion would fail at the end of the turn because the petrified units would "come back". However, if the controlling player goes first and pulls out of the Province, then the conqueror maintains his status and could complete the conversion.


Are we sure this concept of the petrified units being like they didn't exist applies to the En rules as well? Was this confirmed by the designer in a post somewhere? Because what's written in the English manual is very different.

If that was indeed the case, whould the player victim of Medusa's power suffer a temporary reduction of power on the military track equal to the number of petrified units?
 
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Daniel U. Thibault
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Axiomystical wrote:
Are we sure this concept of the petrified units being like they didn't exist applies to the En rules as well? Was this confirmed by the designer in a post somewhere? Because what's written in the English manual is very different.

If that was indeed the case, whould the player victim of Medusa's power suffer a temporary reduction of power on the military track equal to the number of petrified units?


I have huge reservations with making the Academy Games edition distinct from the Asyncron one. It is supposed to be the same game, and follow the designer's intent regardless of the language the rules are written in. Otherwise we're looking at two different games (like the original Mare Nostrum is quite different from the re-edition) that just happen to use the same components. We'd have to split the BGG entry, for sure. And it would make convention tournaments messy.
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Fabrizio N
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Urhixidur wrote:
Axiomystical wrote:
Are we sure this concept of the petrified units being like they didn't exist applies to the En rules as well? Was this confirmed by the designer in a post somewhere? Because what's written in the English manual is very different.

If that was indeed the case, whould the player victim of Medusa's power suffer a temporary reduction of power on the military track equal to the number of petrified units?


I have huge reservations with making the Academy Games edition distinct from the Asyncron one. It is supposed to be the same game, and follow the designer's intent regardless of the language the rules are written in. Otherwise we're looking at two different games (like the original Mare Nostrum is quite different from the re-edition) that just happen to use the same components. We'd have to split the BGG entry, for sure. And it would make convention tournaments messy.


I totally agree it would be highly preferable to have just one set of rules.
We had the same problem with even greater differencies in Fief France, and that was a bad mess.
Having said that when I play with friends I have to go by the manual, or they would think I make up the rules.
If a rule contradicts the manual I'd like to have some hard evidence like an erratum or FAQ so I can prove my point if there is a discussion.
It doesn't look we are quite there with this one yet.

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Raph Moimoi
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Axiomystical wrote:
Urhixidur wrote:
Axiomystical wrote:
Are we sure this concept of the petrified units being like they didn't exist applies to the En rules as well? Was this confirmed by the designer in a post somewhere? Because what's written in the English manual is very different.

If that was indeed the case, whould the player victim of Medusa's power suffer a temporary reduction of power on the military track equal to the number of petrified units?


I have huge reservations with making the Academy Games edition distinct from the Asyncron one. It is supposed to be the same game, and follow the designer's intent regardless of the language the rules are written in. Otherwise we're looking at two different games (like the original Mare Nostrum is quite different from the re-edition) that just happen to use the same components. We'd have to split the BGG entry, for sure. And it would make convention tournaments messy.


I totally agree it would be highly preferable to have just one set of rules.
We had the same problem with even greater differencies in Fief France, and that was a bad mess.
Having said that when I play with friends I have to go by the manual, or they would think I make up the rules.
If a rule contradicts the manual I'd like to have some hard evidence like an erratum or FAQ so I can prove my point if there is a discussion.
It doesn't look we are quite there with this one yet.



Theses differences should never happen, his is a nonsense.
Now we have to rely on a big FAQ to get everybdoy play the same game...
 
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