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BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Ah, remember Travelgate? rss

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Chad Ellis
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The first Clinton scandal boiled down to accusations that the Clintons fired some people in the White House travel department so they could put their own people in.

Well, Trump doesn't think small like that. According to Christie, Trump is looking to do a far wider purge of Obama appointees and wants to get Congress to pass a law to make it easier to fire civil service employees, explicitly to get rid of any who aren't loyal to Trump.

I'm not generally a fan of rules that make it really hard to fire people, but the civil service is obviously vulnerable to political pressure. Here we have a Presidential candidate telling donors that he plans not merely to apply political pressure but actually to fire a bunch of people, not because they're bad at their jobs, but because they were appointed by a Democratic President.
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Mac Mcleod
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
The first Clinton scandal boiled down to accusations that the Clintons fired some people in the White House travel department so they could put their own people in.

Well, Trump doesn't think small like that. According to Christie, Trump is looking to do a far wider purge of Obama appointees and wants to get Congress to pass a law to make it easier to fire civil service employees, explicitly to get rid of any who aren't loyal to Trump.

I'm not generally a fan of rules that make it really hard to fire people, but the civil service is obviously vulnerable to political pressure. Here we have a Presidential candidate telling donors that he plans not merely to apply political pressure but actually to fire a bunch of people, not because they're bad at their jobs, but because they were appointed by a Democratic President.


How is this different from ordinary patronage Chad?

Is there one set of jobs which are fair game and expected to be replaced and another set of jobs which are supposed to be stable?
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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maxo-texas wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
The first Clinton scandal boiled down to accusations that the Clintons fired some people in the White House travel department so they could put their own people in.

Well, Trump doesn't think small like that. According to Christie, Trump is looking to do a far wider purge of Obama appointees and wants to get Congress to pass a law to make it easier to fire civil service employees, explicitly to get rid of any who aren't loyal to Trump.

I'm not generally a fan of rules that make it really hard to fire people, but the civil service is obviously vulnerable to political pressure. Here we have a Presidential candidate telling donors that he plans not merely to apply political pressure but actually to fire a bunch of people, not because they're bad at their jobs, but because they were appointed by a Democratic President.


How is this different from ordinary patronage Chad?

Is there one set of jobs which are fair game and expected to be replaced and another set of jobs which are supposed to be stable?
I think the difference is the implied threat to not just give top jobs to cronies, but the wholesale sacking of civil servants who oppose him.

The fact he wants to make it easier means he is intending to go beyond normal Washington cronyism.
 
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J
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maxo-texas wrote:
Is there one set of jobs which are fair game and expected to be replaced and another set of jobs which are supposed to be stable?

Yes, there are political appointee jobs and civil servant jobs. The controversy comes when the exiting administration tries to convert the former into the latter, which is called burrowing. Since that is the root of the problem, it should be addressed, not making it easier to fire career civil servants. They can already be fired if they suck.
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Chad Ellis
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We should also note that there are political appointees who are there because of loyalties (a practice I find objectionable and corrupt outside of jobs that are explicitly political) and there are also positions that are appointed by the President but where people are chosen in large part or entirely due to qualifications. When those people then apply for civil service positions it's still called burrowing but could also be called something like "keeping good and experienced people in government".

I'm sure there's room for reform of the entire system. I'm equally sure that for far too many Americans wouldn't be able to say their reaction to hearing that a candidate wanted to change the laws around civil servants so they could fire ones appointed by the other party until they heard which candidate wanted to do it.
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Drew
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
According to Christie, Trump is looking to do a far wider purge of Obama appointees and wants to get Congress to pass a law to make it easier to fire civil service employees, explicitly to get rid of any who aren't loyal to Trump.


I'm fine with a mass purge of every stinkin' bureaucracy in Washington. Every "lifer" who spends his days finding ways to make life more difficult for the citizen class who will retire with the shiniest of golden parachutes should try living under the random rules and regulations these guys make up over martinis during happy hour.

I won't want "loyalty to Trump" to be the litmus test, however. But I do want to see most of Washington out looking for work.

And also people like Lois Lerner behind bars.
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Christopher Dearlove
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maxo-texas wrote:
Is there one set of jobs which are fair game and expected to be replaced and another set of jobs which are supposed to be stable?


That's actually the British system. With the latter significantly outnumbering the former.
 
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Chris
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Drew1365 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
According to Christie, Trump is looking to do a far wider purge of Obama appointees and wants to get Congress to pass a law to make it easier to fire civil service employees, explicitly to get rid of any who aren't loyal to Trump.


I'm fine with a mass purge of every stinkin' bureaucracy in Washington. Every "lifer" who spends his days finding ways to make life more difficult for the citizen class who will retire with the shiniest of golden parachutes should try living under the random rules and regulations these guys make up over martinis during happy hour.

I won't want "loyalty to Trump" to be the litmus test, however. But I do want to see most of Washington out looking for work.

And also people like Lois Lerner behind bars.


This. I can't really get upset at government employees being fired no matter who they are or who does it.
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Josh
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galad2003 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
According to Christie, Trump is looking to do a far wider purge of Obama appointees and wants to get Congress to pass a law to make it easier to fire civil service employees, explicitly to get rid of any who aren't loyal to Trump.


I'm fine with a mass purge of every stinkin' bureaucracy in Washington. Every "lifer" who spends his days finding ways to make life more difficult for the citizen class who will retire with the shiniest of golden parachutes should try living under the random rules and regulations these guys make up over martinis during happy hour.

I won't want "loyalty to Trump" to be the litmus test, however. But I do want to see most of Washington out looking for work.

And also people like Lois Lerner behind bars.


This. I can't really get upset at government employees being fired no matter who they are or who does it.


You are looking at this wrong. At least with a semblence of job security and stability if you do your job government has a chance of running well sometimes. This change wants to turn everything into a loyslty test and nothing more, it's the worst possible system.
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Robert Stuart
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Drew1365 wrote:
I'm fine with a mass purge of every stinkin' bureaucracy in Washington. Every "lifer" who spends his days finding ways to make life more difficult for the citizen class who will retire with the shiniest of golden parachutes should try living under the random rules and regulations these guys make up over martinis during happy hour.


In my 46 years of work experience I've spent four years in the teaching service, 30 years in academia, 12 years in corporate research and 10 years in private consultancy or owning my own business (the numbers add up to more than 46 because I've had University cross-appointments while in corporate research & consultancy). I've never worked for the civil service but, of course, being in business for myself, have had a lot of interaction with civil servants, especially those working for the IRS.

I can categorically say that in my experience civil servants are just as dedicated to providing service as corporate employees, and that the corporate world has just as many lifers and slackers as the civil service -- with the exception that corporate slackers, perhaps because they have to work harder to hide their incompetency, are nastier and more vicious specimens of humanity, and tend to be found higher in the hierarchy, than their civil servant counterparts.
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Chad Ellis
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galad2003 wrote:


This. I can't really get upset at government employees being fired no matter who they are or who does it.


I can understand the viewpoint that current civil servants should be fired. I have a hard time understanding the viewpoint that adds, "even if they are replaced by a never-ending cycle of political loyalists to whoever won the last election."
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bob_santafe wrote:


I can categorically say that in my experience civil servants are just as dedicated to providing service as corporate employees, and that the corporate world has just as many lifers and slackers as the civil service -- with the exception that corporate slackers, perhaps because they have to work harder to hide their incompetency, are nastier and more vicious specimens of humanity, and tend to be found higher in the hierarchy, than their civil servant counterparts.


I always remind people that Dilbert is set in the private sector.
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Brian
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Where does this mass firing end? Do we get rid of all military civilians? All intelligence officials? Why not just get rid of all our volunteer service men and women while we're at it? I'm sure more will rush to fill in the gaps.

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Chad_Ellis wrote:
The first Clinton scandal boiled down to accusations that the Clintons fired some people in the White House travel department so they could put their own people in.



To clarify for youngsters: that was not the scandal. That was the talking point.

The Clintons had every right to fire those people and install their own. The problem was that they made shit up to destroy them professionally to justify the firings. They didn't have to do that. The jobs were patronage jobs to begin with. The director was expecting to be replaced, the Clintons chose to unnecessarily destroy him with falsehoods.

Off the top of my head. May have left something out.

Guess we'll see who cares to defend her sorry ass.
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wifwendell wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:


I can categorically say that in my experience civil servants are just as dedicated to providing service as corporate employees, and that the corporate world has just as many lifers and slackers as the civil service -- with the exception that corporate slackers, perhaps because they have to work harder to hide their incompetency, are nastier and more vicious specimens of humanity, and tend to be found higher in the hierarchy, than their civil servant counterparts.


I always remind people that Dilbert is set in the private sector.


And it's all so eerily accurate.
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she2 wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:


I can categorically say that in my experience civil servants are just as dedicated to providing service as corporate employees, and that the corporate world has just as many lifers and slackers as the civil service -- with the exception that corporate slackers, perhaps because they have to work harder to hide their incompetency, are nastier and more vicious specimens of humanity, and tend to be found higher in the hierarchy, than their civil servant counterparts.


I always remind people that Dilbert is set in the private sector.


And it's all so eerily accurate.


Strangely, Adams thinks Trump will win in a landslide
 
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Mac Mcleod
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SpaceGhost wrote:
she2 wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:


I can categorically say that in my experience civil servants are just as dedicated to providing service as corporate employees, and that the corporate world has just as many lifers and slackers as the civil service -- with the exception that corporate slackers, perhaps because they have to work harder to hide their incompetency, are nastier and more vicious specimens of humanity, and tend to be found higher in the hierarchy, than their civil servant counterparts.


I always remind people that Dilbert is set in the private sector.


And it's all so eerily accurate.


Strangely, Adams thinks Trump will win in a landslide


He is betting on Trump's emotional factless (or even counter factual- aw hell outright lying) rhetoric to sway voters.

Trump literally says things like "crime is up" when... this is the reality.



But he says it very convincingly and repeats it over when someone corrects him.

It is classic 'strongman' BIG LIE.

It's a technique that works.

I'm not sure how Clinton counters it.
 
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Tom McVey
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bob_santafe wrote:


I can categorically say that in my experience civil servants are just as dedicated to providing service as corporate employees, and that the corporate world has just as many lifers and slackers as the civil service -- with the exception that corporate slackers, perhaps because they have to work harder to hide their incompetency, are nastier and more vicious specimens of humanity, and tend to be found higher in the hierarchy, than their civil servant counterparts.


This. There are a lot more functional sociopaths in the private sector than the public sector, if only because (1) the rewards to sociopathic behavior are higher in the private sector, (2) it's much harder to use fear or greed to get your subordinates or colleagues to concur with your sociopathic behavior, (3) because people are in public sector jobs for longer, good/bad reputations are more of a factor in the public sector than the private sector, (4) policies and oversight(or red tape, if you want to use a prejorative term) make it harder to do anything in the public sector, including being a grifter.
 
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Drew
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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tmcvey wrote:
This. There are a lot more functional sociopaths in the private sector than the public sector, if only because (1) the rewards to sociopathic behavior are higher in the private sector, (2) it's much harder to use fear or greed to get your subordinates or colleagues to concur with your sociopathic behavior, (3) because people are in public sector jobs for longer, good/bad reputations are more of a factor in the public sector than the private sector, (4) policies and oversight(or red tape, if you want to use a prejorative term) make it harder to do anything in the public sector, including being a grifter.


Wrong on all counts!
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That's the only way freedom reigns -- no rules, no laws, no "social contract." Do whatever you want to to whomever you want to. Everyone can either live in an armed bunker or die. That's freedom, man, that's freedom.

ANARCHY RULES MO'FOS!!!!
 
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Josh
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maxo-texas wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
she2 wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:


I can categorically say that in my experience civil servants are just as dedicated to providing service as corporate employees, and that the corporate world has just as many lifers and slackers as the civil service -- with the exception that corporate slackers, perhaps because they have to work harder to hide their incompetency, are nastier and more vicious specimens of humanity, and tend to be found higher in the hierarchy, than their civil servant counterparts.


I always remind people that Dilbert is set in the private sector.


And it's all so eerily accurate.


Strangely, Adams thinks Trump will win in a landslide


He is betting on Trump's emotional factless (or even counter factual- aw hell outright lying) rhetoric to sway voters.

Trump literally says things like "crime is up" when... this is the reality.



But he says it very convincingly and repeats it over when someone corrects him.

It is classic 'strongman' BIG LIE.

It's a technique that works.

I'm not sure how Clinton counters it.


Call him a liar, directly, with no fancy words. Do it repewtedly and most importantly do it directly to his face. He will lose his shit soon enough.
 
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Chris R.
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Travelgate?

#4 of 19 on this list...
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Christopher Dearlove
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sikeospi wrote:


Travelgate?

#4 of 19 on this list...


And if the worst spin is put on every one of those, that still leaves Clinton the much lesser of two evils.

For several reasons, but one which dominates. Because Clinton's appointment wouldn't threaten another war in Europe. Which Trump with his "supporting NATO allies is optional, I'll decide when it happens" rhetoric threatens. Putin has already annexed parts of two of his neighbours (one of which Trump has said he might recognise) and is quite likely to take that as an invitation to send troops (under false flag at first) into the Baltic States.
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sikeospi wrote:
[Image of long list]

Travelgate?

#4 of 19 on this list...


Why did those Clinton apparatchiks leave out VINCE FOSTER!?!?
 
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