$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 90.84

5,908 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
37.2% of Goal | 26 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

Kremlin» Forums » Rules

Subject: PC won't die rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Viking
United States
Washington DC
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
I play WIFOM with empty glasses
badge
Viking's Law: Anything that can go wrong, *SHOULD*
mbmbmbmbmb
We played the standard game yesterday, and despite all our efforts, the original Party Chief wouldn't die off. He also successfully waved three times, despite getting sicker and sicker. According to the rules, his third wave ended the game, with no one the winner.

Is this correct, or did we make a mistake?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
T. Dauphin
Canada
Belleville
Ontario
flag msg tools
No. The idea is for one of the players to control the PC and claim victory. It really defeats the purpose if you let the game win, in what is effectively an accidental way, since you have little control over when he dies. You can speed it up a little by putting him under investigation, but if the ol' guy won't die, you just have to hang in there.
A winner is declared when one of the players controls the PC and waves 3 times.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Viking
United States
Washington DC
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
I play WIFOM with empty glasses
badge
Viking's Law: Anything that can go wrong, *SHOULD*
mbmbmbmbmb
tanik wrote:
No. The idea is for one of the players to control the PC and claim victory. It really defeats the purpose if you let the game win, in what is effectively an accidental way, since you have little control over when he dies. You can speed it up a little by putting him under investigation, but if the ol' guy won't die, you just have to hang in there.
A winner is declared when one of the players controls the PC and waves 3 times.

Yep, we had him under investigation, we tried to purge him, and he was sick, but he was a hardy old crank.

The rules say that the game ends when a PC waves three times: it doesn't say that he has to be controlled by a player when he does so. Of course, the rules are awful, so we weren't certain whether we missed something, but we ended the game there at the end of round three.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
T. Dauphin
Canada
Belleville
Ontario
flag msg tools

Definitely some poor rules.
The Avalon Hill version reads,

The first player controlling one or more Politicians who wave a total of three times from the rostrum at the October Parade wins.

5 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
Grant Green - Am I Blue? // Tina Brooks - True Blue // Buddy Guy - Damn Right, I've Got The Blues // Harold Land - West Coast Blues! // Sam McClain - Blues for the Soul // Oliver Nelson - Screamin' the Blues
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
tanik wrote:

Definitely some poor rules.
The Avalon Hill version reads,

The first player controlling one or more Politicians who wave a total of three times from the rostrum at the October Parade wins.


I wish I had a dollar for every classic game I own where the original rules are superior to the 'improved' rules in a later edition.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michi Hostettler
Switzerland
CERN
Geneva
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know which ruleset you played - if it is the JR 'standard', which is roughly based on the original FM rules, you are right: if any PC waves successfully at three parades, the game ends. Whoever has the most influence assigned on the PC wins. If nobody has assigned any influence to the victorious PC, it's indeed a draw.

Unfortunately, the JR 'standard' rules missed out two points which made such a scenario highly unlikely under the original FM rules:
- Under FM rules, the original PC is always the 80 years old Nestor Apparatschik, who begins sick (+) ... so he is quite likely to die early enough.
- Under FM rules, uncontrolled politicians never vote. In particular, they do NOT vote innocent on a trial, not even for themselves. So if the players agree on a guilty vote in order to send the neutral PC to Siberia (following up on an investigation from the previous year), he'll end up there.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
I like board games more than most people.
United States
Northlake
Illinois
flag msg tools
When I die I want people to look at the condition of my games and say, "Man, he really played these alot."
mbmbmb
michi4242 wrote:
- Under FM rules, uncontrolled politicians never vote. In particular, they do NOT vote innocent on a trial, not even for themselves. So if the players agree on a guilty vote in order to send the neutral PC to Siberia (following up on an investigation from the previous year), he'll end up there.


And in the Avalon Hill rules,

"A Politician without declared IP is not considered inactive."

"A Politician with no declared IP on him does not vote except in his own defense."
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
T. Dauphin
Canada
Belleville
Ontario
flag msg tools

michi4242 wrote:
I don't know which ruleset you played - if it is the JR 'standard', which is roughly based on the original FM rules, you are right: if any PC waves successfully at three parades, the game ends. Whoever has the most influence assigned on the PC wins. If nobody has assigned any influence to the victorious PC, it's indeed a draw.


Although, this is not explicitly stated in the JR rules. It is stated (really more implied, than stated; "If nobody tipped the right man all have a Vodka!") in the FM rules, so if the intent is to follow FM then this is the case.
It's also worth noting that FM had you winning if you had the most influence on the PC at the moment the game ended (regardless of who controlled him when he waved), whereas AH has you gaining credit for controlling the PC each time s/he waves, and winning the moment this total is 3.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michi Hostettler
Switzerland
CERN
Geneva
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
tanik wrote:

It's also worth noting that FM had you winning if you had the most influence on the PC at the moment the game ended (regardless of who controlled him when he waved), whereas AH has you gaining credit for controlling the PC each time s/he waves, and winning the moment this total is 3.

Indeed - and to be even more complete: a tie goes to the player(s) NOT controlling with FM rules (unlike JR standard, iirc). Hence even a politician with 10 IPs assigned is a gamble if you're controlling. This changes the game a lot, as it makes dominating the game by controlling a major part of the politburo much less of a winning strategy ...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
T. Dauphin
Canada
Belleville
Ontario
flag msg tools

Yes, exactly. And you are discouraged to reveal all your influence by this rule. It should have been left in.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark J
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
No reason the PC has to stay there the whole game if every player wants him out. You know the investigations lead to trials right? Put him up for trial and vote him out.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Viking
United States
Washington DC
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
I play WIFOM with empty glasses
badge
Viking's Law: Anything that can go wrong, *SHOULD*
mbmbmbmbmb
DiploGuy wrote:
No reason the PC has to stay there the whole game if every player wants him out. You know the investigations lead to trials right? Put him up for trial and vote him out.
According to our interpretation of the rules we had (the JR standard rules), if any two politburo members were uninfluenced, you can't vote him out, since they vote him to be innocent.

Also, it was mostly irrelevant in our game, since the defense minister was removed somehow before the third round of investigation and his space was auto-filled by someone with no influence. By the time we realized we needed to get him out of there, it was too late.

michi4242 wrote:
I don't know which ruleset you played - if it is the JR 'standard', which is roughly based on the original FM rules, you are right: if any PC waves successfully at three parades, the game ends. Whoever has the most influence assigned on the PC wins. If nobody has assigned any influence to the victorious PC, it's indeed a draw.

Unfortunately, the JR 'standard' rules missed out two points which made such a scenario highly unlikely under the original FM rules:
- Under FM rules, the original PC is always the 80 years old Nestor Apparatschik, who begins sick (+) ... so he is quite likely to die early enough.
- Under FM rules, uncontrolled politicians never vote. In particular, they do NOT vote innocent on a trial, not even for themselves. So if the players agree on a guilty vote in order to send the neutral PC to Siberia (following up on an investigation from the previous year), he'll end up there.


The JR rules actually do state that it's Nestor Apparatschik, but he starts the game healthy. After his second successful wave, we actually went back and retconned that the PC been sick from the beginning, since we saw that in the modern rules, and thought it made sense. It didn't make a difference. He still would have passed all his checks and waved like a spry old geezer.

But yeah, it makes a huge difference whether the non-controlled party members vote. The defense minister felt extremely weak in our game since all trials were sure to be auto-losses.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark J
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah that's one of the key differences between the versions that are played. All 3 options are used, un-influenced: always votes innocent, always votes guilty or makes no vote at all.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.