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Deadfall» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Simple Hustling Strategy rss

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Ulrich Roth
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Somebody correct me if I am wrong (I haven't played the game yet, only thought about it after reading the rules), but couldn't two players keep calling each other early, before anybody else does, thus winning all the pots as a team, without risking to lose anything at all (the penalty payments are only ever tossed from one to the other)?

Of course, this wicked scheme would have to be camouflaged a little, to forego immediate expulsion from the playing table. ninja

If this works, we would have to say goodbye to Deadfall as a "serious" betting game (at least for more than 2 players). soblue

The game could even have problems on an informal level. Once players have understood the above, they might tend - even subconsciously - to call only those other players that they "like"... surprise
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James Ernest
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Ulrich:

I seem to recall this issue coming up in playtest, but it didn't seem that big a deal... most people who will play this game are friends.

However, I think you're better off saying "what if" rather than "goodbye" to this game on the basis of this exploit.

While I hope you will withhold judgment until you actually play the game as written, here are the first two suggestions that enter my head.

1: Eliminate the ante. This alone will solve the collusion exploit, since now all the money that the team is winning comes from the team. However, it alters the pot odds calculations somewhat, probably for the worse, so...

2: Make the loser of the last round provide the ante for the next. All players ante only in circumstances where there is no previous loser. This also changes the odds calculations, but for the better I think. It adds more risk to lying.

There are probably other variations appropriate for players who wish to avoid collusion, but for the most part I'll stand by the first notion that collusion isn't a consideration in the majority of games.

Thanks,

James Ernest
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will Jones
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If you are worried about that then just play without an ante...

Really you are putting a lot of trust in your "partner" by doing this as you would have a lot more to loose if he/she doesn't return the favor one time especially if you call them on a ten.

We played with $.25 chips. Everyone put in $6 and got 24 chips. Made for an extremely fun time! I lost a couple bucks, but my wife doubled her money. I really love this simple game.
 
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Ulrich Roth
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Thanks for replying, James.

CheapassJames wrote:
1: Eliminate the ante. This alone will solve the collusion exploit, since now all the money that the team is winning comes from the team. However, it alters the pot odds calculations somewhat, probably for the worse, so...
2: Make the loser of the last round provide the ante for the next. All players ante only in circumstances where there is no previous loser. This also changes the odds calculations, but for the better I think. It adds more risk to lying.

There are probably other variations appropriate for players who wish to avoid collusion, but for the most part I'll stand by the first notion that collusion isn't a consideration in the majority of games.

We have played our first few rounds of "Deadfall" by now, without ante (that simple solution occurred to us as well), and it worked alright.

I'm sure you are right that "among friends" the game plays just fine without this fix, but it worries me on principle that caller and called should - statistically speaking - split the pot between them. This is not at all hard to figure out, and would certainly distract some of the people I usually play with.

Your second suggestion sounds fun (although it makes losing a grim affair indeed). robot
 
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Ulrich Roth
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CheapassJames wrote:
1: Eliminate the ante. (.......) However, it alters the pot odds calculations somewhat, probably for the worse
I'm not quite sure if this is what you mean here, but what we have found is that simply eliminating the ante makes winning a round with low numbers somewhat anticlimactic.

Therefore, for the time being we'll play with a penalty of "card number + n", "n" being the player count, i.e., the ante is replaced by a "basic" penalty.

Mathematically it boils down to pretty much the same thing as your second suggestion, but it seems a little more elegant.
 
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will Jones
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On a related note...

I just listened to Planet Money podcast #690 "All In" about the world series of poker. To play in this tournament you have to pay the 10k buy in. Turns out, a lot of players will chip in for other players such as paying %5 of the buy in for %5 back of winnings. It's called "buying Stake" I believe. This is so common that a lot of players can actually end up at a table with other players they have stake in.

Just thought I'd share this because when you said "serious betting game" it turns out that exact thing you are talking about is on the world series of poker level. It's a great podcast episode and I highly suggest listening to it.
 
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Ulrich Roth
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wills2084 wrote:
when you said "serious betting game" it turns out that exact thing you are talking about is on the world series of poker level.

How would two (or more) colluding poker players hog successive pots at the exclusion of everybody else?
 
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will Jones
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If you are at a table with someone you have stakes in and everyone else has folded but you two then you would be less likely to bet hard or go all in against that person you have stakes in. You want that person to survive at the table just as much as you want to survive too.
 
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Ulrich Roth
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It is true that there are quite a few ways to cheat at Poker by collusion with other players, some of them hard to detect.

What you cannot do in Poker, however, is consistently deny an opponent the pot by means of a simple trick, regardless of how good his hand is and how high he is prepared to raise the stakes.

That's exactly what you can do in Deadfall, without violating the rules as written. I think that's less than ideal and needs some kind of fix.
 
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