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Glory to Rome» Forums » Rules

Subject: Combining Architect and Craftsman to Lay Foundation on an Out of Town Site rss

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Gillum the Stoor
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The rules say that, "To lay a foundation on an Out of Town Site, you must perform two consecutive Architect or Craftsman actions on the same turn."

In most turns, if you are able to perform two consecutive actions, they will be of the same type.

There are a few buildings whose function may allow performing disparate actions consecutively within a turn:

Amphitheatre: When you complete an Amphitheatre, at this time once only, you may execute one Craftsman action for every point of Influence. [You may have completed an Amphitheatre with an Architect action.]

Bath: When you gain a new client, you may immediately execute an action of the new client’s role. [The rules state explicitly that, when two or more clients are hired in a turn, the actions provided by Bath "may be combined to start an out of town site."

If you find yourself with two consecutive actions, one Architect and one Craftsman, can you use those to start an out of town site?

The question came up, without complete resolution (or at least with questions remaining at the end) in these two threads:

Out of town site: can foundations be laid with 1 Architect + 1 Craftsman? or only 2 Architects or 2 Craftsmen?
Confusion about timing of out of town sites

I suppose that I am really just resurrecting the first of those threads.

The last post in that first thread had ackmondual wondering "if you have a Bath completed ... take a wood and concrete to build an out of town foundation?" Interestingly, he wrote six years later in another thread that you couldn't. (Maybe he learned some resolution that I haven't found.)

In yet another thread, xethair (who is generally a good authority) wrote that one could 'call a Craft/Architect action "completed" when you use it as half of starting an out-of-town site.'

This suggests that perhaps each action does "half completion" - but doesn't necessary keep track of Architect versus Craftsman.

Perhaps this question is best resolved by referring to this thread: OFFICIAL, UNPUBLISHED RULE (( "This is Glory To Rome!" ))

The key point is this one: "If the rules are ambiguous then they should be interpreted in whatever way is least restrictive on play."

That would imply that one Architect action and one Craftsman action would suffice to start an out of town site.
 
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Leo S.
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No, you can not.
In any turn you use only one type of action/role.
It is impossible to mix them, as for example craftsman with architect.
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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alerce wrote:
In any turn you use only one type of action/role.

This is generally true, but not if you have Amphitheatre or Bath.

Suppose that you have Bath and you lead Patron with one Patron client. You get two Patron actions.

If the pool has an Architect and a Craftsman, you could hire those with your Patron actions.

Because of Bath, you could then get an Architect action and a Craftsman action.

There are similar examples with Amphitheatre.
 
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Pete Goch
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I would agree with the thread linked. This is Glory to Rome, it is allowed.

There would certainly be no problem using both craftsman and architect actions generated during a turn on the same building to add materials to it (provided the materials were located where appropriate for each action). I see no reason why you couldn't then combine a craftsman action and an architect action to then lay an out of town site for a building.

I tend to think of actions in Glory to Rome as forming a pool of actions that can be spent as they are acquired. But, once acquired, can be spent in any order.
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Gillum the Stoor
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xethair's post does talk about the free ordering of actions (or the lack thereof).
 
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Leo S.
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Ups, sorry.
I didn't read on detail the hole origibal post. Just thought it was a newbie question and tried to give a quick answer.
 
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Pete Goch
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The only thing at all iffy about it is in the wording of the out of town site rules: "To lay a Foundation on an Out of Town Site, you must perform two consecutive Architect or Craftsman actions on the same turn."

You could read that as saying two consecutive Architect or [two consecutive] Craftsman actions on the same turn.

But, again, this is Glory to Rome.
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Gillum the Stoor
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
The only thing at all iffy about it is in the wording of the out of town site rules: "To lay a Foundation on an Out of Town Site, you must perform two consecutive Architect or Craftsman actions on the same turn."

You could read that as saying two consecutive Architect or [two consecutive] Craftsman actions on the same turn.

But, again, this is Glory to Rome.

Right.

One could also read it as "two consecutive actions (Architect or Craftsman)."
 
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A-Mart

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I would argue that since the parens are not included in the original text, you would have to do two consecutive actions of either type rather than a combo of the two. Even though this is GtR - interpreting it as though they are included seems like a bit of a stretch.
 
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Paulo Santoro
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Quote:
"The rules state explicitly that, when two or more clients are hired in a turn, the actions provided by Bath "may be combined to start an out of town site."


This makes me think you can't. "When 2 or more clients are hired", this means you need both actions in this phase (using Bath). If you could, the wording should be different, not explicitly requiring "2 or more clients".
 
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Vapix
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PauloSantoro wrote:
Quote:
"The rules state explicitly that, when two or more clients are hired in a turn, the actions provided by Bath "may be combined to start an out of town site."


This makes me think you can't. "When 2 or more clients are hired", this means you need both actions in this phase (using Bath). If you could, the wording should be different, not explicitly requiring "2 or more clients".

"exceptio probat regulam" supports this position:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule
which means a stated exception implies the existence of a rule to which it is the exception
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Gillum the Stoor
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Vapix wrote:
PauloSantoro wrote:
Quote:
"The rules state explicitly that, when two or more clients are hired in a turn, the actions provided by Bath "may be combined to start an out of town site."

This makes me think you can't. "When 2 or more clients are hired", this means you need both actions in this phase (using Bath). If you could, the wording should be different, not explicitly requiring "2 or more clients".

"exceptio probat regulam" supports this position:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule
which means a stated exception implies the existence of a rule to which it is the exception

I don't understand this.

"This makes me think you can't." Can't do what?

The rules say that, if 2 or more clients are hired and, if Bath is usable, the actions provided by the newly hired clients can be used to start an out of town site.

What in the rule quoted above suggests that, if two clients are hired, one Architect, one Craftsman, the resulting actions could not be used to start an out of town site?
 
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Paulo Santoro
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gillum wrote:
Vapix wrote:
PauloSantoro wrote:
Quote:
"The rules state explicitly that, when two or more clients are hired in a turn, the actions provided by Bath "may be combined to start an out of town site."

This makes me think you can't. "When 2 or more clients are hired", this means you need both actions in this phase (using Bath). If you could, the wording should be different, not explicitly requiring "2 or more clients".

"exceptio probat regulam" supports this position:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule
which means a stated exception implies the existence of a rule to which it is the exception

I don't understand this.

"This makes me think you can't." Can't do what?


Can't do what the subject says: "Combine Architect and Craftsman to Lay Foundation on an Out of Town Site". :-)

I said, and Vapix supported, that there are in the rules a statement that implies you can't. Please reread our posts, it should be clear.
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Gillum the Stoor
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Sorry, it's not. (Of course, I'm not fluent in Latin.)


But you can get Architect and Craftsman actions both in the same phase/turn using Bath, so I'm not sure that I see what you're reading in the Bath rules that would outlaw using them to start an out of town site.
 
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Pete Goch
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Yeah, I agree. It's jibber jabber.

Vapix wrote:
PauloSantoro wrote:
Quote:
"The rules state explicitly that, when two or more clients are hired in a turn, the actions provided by Bath "may be combined to start an out of town site."


This makes me think you can't. "When 2 or more clients are hired", this means you need both actions in this phase (using Bath). If you could, the wording should be different, not explicitly requiring "2 or more clients".

"exceptio probat regulam" supports this position:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule
which means a stated exception implies the existence of a rule to which it is the exception



It's an "exception" to using the actions immediately. If you had to use every action gained from bath immediately you wouldn't be able to combine them start an out of town site no matter what the role.

Quote:
When you gain a new client, you may immediately execute an action of the new client's role. This action must be completed before a new client is hired, although two actions may be combined to form an out of town site.
 
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Kolby Reddish
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They're saying the fact that it specifies that you can start an out of town site with 2 or more clients (only) implies that you can't do it with an overlapping action + 1 from Baths.

I agree with them.
 
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Pete Goch
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reddish22 wrote:
They're saying the fact that it specifies that you can start an out of town site with 2 or more clients (only) implies that you can't do it with an overlapping action + 1 from Baths.

I agree with them.


But that was never the question as far as I can tell. We were only ever discussing combining consecutive actions.
 
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Paulo Santoro
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I understand. It seems that my reasoning about the Bath and this case is not right.

However I think it was unpolite to call "jibber jabber" my reasoning. There was a reasoning, and I would have understood the facts regardless the jibber jabber thing. Unnecessary.

I'm not stating I'm convinced that it's possible to combine 2 different roles as asked. I'm just saying that my reasoning using the Bath rules are not enough to be conclusive.
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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reddish22 wrote:
They're saying the fact that it specifies that you can start an out of town site with 2 or more clients (only) implies that you can't do it with an overlapping action + 1 from Baths.

The cases resulting from Bath are relatively simple because Bath applies only during Patron actions. The only possible "building" actions (Architect or Craftsman) can result from the new clients hired by Bath.

It gets a little more interesting with this card:
Amphitheatre wrote:
When you complete an Amphitheatre, at this time once only, you may execute one Craftsman action for every point of Influence you have, including the Influence you get from finishing the Amphitheatre.

(Clearly, ones interpretation of Bath is not directly relevant here.)

Suppose that you have your 3 influence and 2 Architect actions (e.g., by having an Architect client).

You use the first Architect action to complete Amphitheatre. This gives you 2 more influence, for a total of 5. The completion of Amphitheatre thus gives you 5 Craftsman actions.

You use 4 Craftsman actions to start 2 out-of-town site. That leaves you with 1 more Craftsman action - to be followed by the second of your original Architect actions.

I think that you can combine these to start a third out-of-town site.
 
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Kolby Reddish
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Okay, I finally see what you're saying now.

I still think you have to match Architect with Architect and Craftsman with Craftsman.
 
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Vapix
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I don't see anything in Bath or Amphitheatre that would influence the basic rule, whatever it is.

There are ways to getting multiple client actions, and in the Bath case I believe the extra text and mention of out of town Sites is there because otherwise it would not be clear that this sequence is ok: "Patron; action (one of Architect or Craftsman) from Bath, a separate action from a normal Client(the second of Architect or Craftsman (IMO)); join the (IMO) two Architects or two Craftsmen and use an Out of Town site for a new Structure".

But ...

... if there's nothing in Amphitheature or Bath to influence the answer to the original question, it has to be here:


From the PDF version of the GtR BB rules:

Out of Town Sites
The upside-down Sites are outside Rome. To lay a Foundation on an Out of Town site you must perform two consecutive Architect or Craftsman actions on the same turn. Without a Client in the matching Role, it is normally not possible to build outside of town.


IMO the use of "matching role" in the last sentence is clear: it has to be matching to either the Architect or the Craftsman from the preceding sentence. If it could be either one (permitting Architect/Craftsman) there would be no need to mention "matching".

IMO Amphitheatre and Bath are relevant not because they change the "two of the same" principle, but because they allow client actions without a corresponding valid client.


Of course it would have been even better to go with "two consecutive Architect or two consecutive Craftsman actions"
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Gillum the Stoor
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I think that the out-of-town text ("a Client in the matching Role") was written to account for the general case and not special cases resulting from use of buildings' powers.

That is generally how the rules are written.

While one can argue that Bath provides "client actions" (a term that does not appear in the rule book) - because the actions are connected with clients being hired - I am not sure that it is reasonable to apply that term to the Craftsman actions one obtains from Amphitheatre - one can get those even if no one in the game has ever hired a Craftsman client!

Personally, I think that the ambiguity in the rules and "This is Glory to Rome" make the interpretation here rather clear.
 
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Randall Bart
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Vapix wrote:
Out of Town Sites
The upside-down Sites are outside Rome. To lay a Foundation on an Out of Town site you must perform two consecutive Architect or Craftsman actions on the same turn. Without a Client in the matching Role, it is normally not possible to build outside of town.


IMO the use of "matching role" in the last sentence is clear: it has to be matching to either the Architect or the Craftsman from the preceding sentence. If it could be either one (permitting Architect/Craftsman) there would be no need to mention "matching".

"Normallly" matching. Normally you only have more than one action by havng matching clients. However, Bath and Amphitheatre also give actions.
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Vapix
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Barticus88 wrote:
Vapix wrote:
Out of Town Sites
The upside-down Sites are outside Rome. To lay a Foundation on an Out of Town site you must perform two consecutive Architect or Craftsman actions on the same turn. Without a Client in the matching Role, it is normally not possible to build outside of town.


IMO the use of "matching role" in the last sentence is clear: it has to be matching to either the Architect or the Craftsman from the preceding sentence. If it could be either one (permitting Architect/Craftsman) there would be no need to mention "matching".

"Normally" matching. Normally you only have more than one action by having matching clients. However, Bath and Amphitheatre also give actions.

I agree that the last sentence is (almost) certainly referring to Amphitheater and Bath ... but the question is if it tells us anything about whether either/both of Architect/Craftsman or Craftsman/Architect are allowed.

My interpretation of that text is:
"Normally you need at least one client matching the lead in order to build outside of town"
This would confirm that the "default" case is that two identical actions (A/A or C/A) are required for an out of town site.

Given that, we'd need something explicit saying that it's ok to use "unlike" actions in exceptional cases, but I can't find any such text, nor even a hint. Unless I've missed something, the argument is based on a possible ambiguity in the text "perform two consecutive Architect or Craftsman actions on the same turn". It isn't perfectly clear, but IMO the second sentence reinforces the interpretation that identical actions are always required.
 
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