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Mare Nostrum» Forums » Rules

Subject: Hammurabi's ability rss

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Richard A. Edwards
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Lacey
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Hammurabi's ability says "You may build one Control Marker each round for free in an open or unopposed Province adjacent to or adjoining a Province that was under your Control at the beginning of the Round."

We recently had a player argue that in a province with another player's Control Marker but no other presence (no Legions or Fortress) that he can freely change the Control Marker to his own using this ability.

It says in an "open" (that is, does not have any Control Marker, we assume) OR "unopposed" (which is NOT defined anywhere in the rules).

Since it's one requirement OR the other, and there's no units there to "oppose" him, it's "unopposed", then he can use the free ability to build a Control Marker.

We argue that no, since there's one already there, there's no way to "build" another one (you have to "Convert" the existing one, right?)

The rule should have been written "open AND unopposed", I think. But even then with "unopposed" not defined, it will be a source of argument.

Any official answer? Any opinions? Guesses?
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Aaron Bredon
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SirRoke wrote:
Hammurabi's ability says "You may build one Control Marker each round for free in an open or unopposed Province adjacent to or adjoining a Province that was under your Control at the beginning of the Round."

We recently had a player argue that in a province with another player's Control Marker but no other presence (no Legions or Fortress) that he can freely change the Control Marker to his own using this ability.

It says in an "open" (that is, does not have any Control Marker, we assume) OR "unopposed" (which is NOT defined anywhere in the rules).

Since it's one requirement OR the other, and there's no units there to "oppose" him, it's "unopposed", then he can use the free ability to build a Control Marker.

We argue that no, since there's one already there, there's no way to "build" another one (you have to "Convert" the existing one, right?)

The rule should have been written "open AND unopposed", I think. But even then with "unopposed" not defined, it will be a source of argument.

Any official answer? Any opinions? Guesses?


I would interpret 'open' as having nothing at all in it (no units, control markers, or buildings.)
I would interpret 'unopposed' as not having anything belonging to another empire in it (so a legion, fortress, or control marker would provide opposition - the legion represents army, the fortress represents defensive structures and garrisons, and the control marker represents infrastructure and population allegiance).

These are basically the same rules as those for building control markers regularly.
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Desiree Greverud
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SirRoke wrote:
Hammurabi's ability says "You may build one Control Marker each round for free in an open or unopposed Province adjacent to or adjoining a Province that was under your Control at the beginning of the Round."

We recently had a player argue that in a province with another player's Control Marker but no other presence (no Legions or Fortress) that he can freely change the Control Marker to his own using this ability.

It says in an "open" (that is, does not have any Control Marker, we assume) OR "unopposed" (which is NOT defined anywhere in the rules).

Since it's one requirement OR the other, and there's no units there to "oppose" him, it's "unopposed", then he can use the free ability to build a Control Marker.

We argue that no, since there's one already there, there's no way to "build" another one (you have to "Convert" the existing one, right?)

The rule should have been written "open AND unopposed", I think. But even then with "unopposed" not defined, it will be a source of argument.

Any official answer? Any opinions? Guesses?

sounds like a d!ck trying to take advantage of a less than perfectly clear but easily understood rule. Do people really play games this way?
 
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Richard A. Edwards
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DragonsDream wrote:
sounds like a d!ck trying to take advantage of a less than perfectly clear but easily understood rule. Do people really play games this way?

Yes, it's a reasonable question and I took no offense during the discussion even though it was my control token that was being removed.

Hammurabi's ability says the province has to be "open" OR "unopposed".

The problem, IMHO, is that the rules are badly stated and incomplete.

The Babylon player agreed the province wasn't "open" since there was a token already there, but rightly asked what "unopposed" meant. Since either condition (it says one OR the other) meant he could build.

The 5 players discussed possible interpretations. In the end it came down to more players thinking "unopposed" (not defined in rules, there's the problem) meant no legions or fortresses and that the control marker didn't count as opposing.

We voted, I lost (3-2) and we moved on.

I posted here because we are gathering information for further consideration so we can come to a more unanimous agreement before our next game.

So far, our discussion seems to be shifting after someone quoted rule 3.1.1 Build Rules - Control "To build Control, Units, or Buildings, a Province need not be occupied by the player’s own Units, but the Province
may not be under an opponent’s control or occupied by an opponent’s Units."

This makes it clear control or units "oppose" building, though they did not use consistent wording to tie it directly to that effect.

This being pointed out, the voting has shifted (1-4) so next game that ability will be blocked by control.

I never mind when rules are questioned as long as we have a civil discussion and use actual information (from sources like the rules, FAQ, official company postings, experienced players, etc.) to help us all sort through it.

After 35+ years of gaming! I think such discussions should be about the point, not about the people involved.

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Thierry Mattray
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SirRoke wrote:
[q="DragonsDream"]

Hammurabi's ability says the province has to be "open" OR "unopposed".



Open means void of any unit and control marker.
unopposed means with some of your units, but without any opponent unit or control marker.

French rule wording is obvious :
"Une fois par tour, vous pouvez construire gratuitement un marqueur Influence en respectant les règles de placement", which means something like :
"Once per turn, you can build one influence marker for free, with the same basic placement rules."
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Richard A. Edwards
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tontione wrote:
SirRoke wrote:
Hammurabi's ability says the province has to be "open" OR "unopposed".

Open means void of any unit and control marker.
unopposed means with some of your units, but without any opponent unit or control marker.

French rule wording is obvious :
"Une fois par tour, vous pouvez construire gratuitement un marqueur Influence en respectant les règles de placement", which means something like :
"Once per turn, you can build one influence marker for free, with the same basic placement rules."


Merci!
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