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Twilight Struggle» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Which Cards Should Be Held Past the Turn 3 Reshuffle rss

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Michael Valentine

Texas
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You're Soviets and it is turn 2. You have NORAD, Duck and Cover, and Defectors in hand. You've played China Card and can hold 2 of these and space (or play) the third. Which ones do you hold and which one do you space?
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Ben Kyo
Japan
Suita
Osaka
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Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
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DEFCON at 3 in the headline phase? Canada at 2 influence? CIA out? Neither side advanced on space race?

I'd probably hold D&C, all else being equal, and Defectors.
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King in Green
Japan
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I would probably space D&C, assuming I couldn't find a use for playing it for ops AR1, especially if neither side is at space 1. NORAD is nice to hold into the mid-war if possible. You may draw Quagmire, its effect lessens if it does get triggered, and there are more ways to degrade DEFCON in the headline. If ops were required for a scoring I might play Defectors though, it's far less powerful if you aren't too afraid of it.
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Han Shot First
United States
Overland Park
Kansas
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Assuming this is T2AR6 with DEFCON at 2 I would space D&C unless you absolutely need 2 or 3 ops right now, then I would play one of the other cards depending on how many ops you need. The longer you can keep NORAD from going into effect, the fewer free influence points you are potentially giving the US. Holding Defectors until after the turn 3 reshuffle will give you at least 4 worry-free headline rounds. Just don't forget about Defectors after the next reshuffle.
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Alex Drazen
United States
Massachusetts
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Hard to say. I almost never play China before mid war as USSR. If you know USSR has CIA and not China, and they don't pay attention, you can hit them with FYP for event when DEFCON hits 2 for double AR's (if they have UN) or defcon win (if they lack NTB, UN, and China).

Depending on Canada's status I might space NORAD (if it's 4/0 or 3/0). But I probably space D&C (though really I probably just played defectors for ops in the first place).
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Drew Lawson
United States
Costa Mesa
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Easy for me: play or space Defectors, hold NORAD and D&C to Turn 3.

I find that Defectors just isn't that scary. I'll be careful about headlining key events in the Early War, but beyond that I just keep track of whether Defectors is still in play or not during Mid War. The U.S. has plenty of scary cards to headline in the Mid War, and I'd honestly rather see Defectors and maintain tempo during AR1 than get hit with CRG, Ussuri River, Grain Sales, VOA, etc. and have to respond rather than dictate the pace.

D&C waits until Turn 3 mainly because it's another potential DEFCON suicide card, and I'll probably have enough of that to manage.
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ray donovan
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Is France empty? Any deco-card likely still in the deck?

If yes i will definitively keep DC+defector. This way i can safely play a deco card during headline phase and add one inf in Algeria and take France AR1. It also help me to insta protect against realignements vs deco-card by taking adjacent countrys turn1. Also allow me to spare in more differents regions with destal. (ex: headline destal venezuela/chile/mexico/zaire AR1 DC on brazil/angola/argentina.

Even without theses conditions i will tend to keep DC to be able to keep it out of the deck turn3. As ussr when i get 5YP i try to do everything to hold this card and DC match very bad with this card.
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Kris Wei
China
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Usually, held card has a list of priority:

5-Year Plan
UN Intervention(if you don't have a white 4 op in hand)
White 4 ops event playable(if you don't have UN)
Duck & Cover(the greatest US headline of T3, equals at least 5 vps)
Defectors (make your headline uninterrupted)
Other white cards
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Michael Valentine

Texas
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sankt wrote:
Usually, held card has a list of priority:

5-Year Plan
UN Intervention(if you don't have a white 4 op in hand)
White 4 ops event playable(if you don't have UN)
Duck & Cover(the greatest US headline of T3, equals at least 5 vps)
Defectors (make your headline uninterrupted)
Other white cards


I'm all on board with holding Marshall or MDP if the event would be fully effective for the USA. But, hold NATO over D&C, 5YP or NORAD? That would not be my inclination. Why do you believe that triggering the NATO event is so bad for Soviets?
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Drew Lawson
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Maybe he meant holding it so that you have access to a 4-op? If I don't have a high-priority hold card, and if the U.S. doesn't create a problem scenario that requires me to use it, I'll often try to save a 4-op in case I get dealt a low-ops hand next turn.
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Kris Wei
China
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MichaelVal wrote:
sankt wrote:
Usually, held card has a list of priority:

5-Year Plan
UN Intervention(if you don't have a white 4 op in hand)
White 4 ops event playable(if you don't have UN)
Duck & Cover(the greatest US headline of T3, equals at least 5 vps)
Defectors (make your headline uninterrupted)
Other white cards


I'm all on board with holding Marshall or MDP if the event would be fully effective for the USA. But, hold NATO over D&C, 5YP or NORAD? That would not be my inclination. Why do you believe that triggering the NATO event is so bad for Soviets?


I think NATO worth >3ops on average, as Flower Power also (but NATO is cheaper), but due to this game is lack of OPs, these 2 cards can hardly be triggered actively. However, the only 2 white events I think that US should NEVER trigger are Formosan Resolution and NORAD.

When Euro is 3-2 in Turn 3, sometimes playing NATO means you almost give up Europe, and also trigger English Scoring. Otherwise you still have a Italy-Thailand war chance, while Marshall is not. Also, Marshall can induce the US control of Greece and Turkey, which are TOTALLY waste.
(That is, if it's UK5-WG4-FR4-IT4, you should give Marshall, if 5-4-3-2, then NATO)

It also depends on where English Scoring is, triggering 2 English Scorings = a dominance VP in EU/AS.

Edit: Sorry, I-P war should be in the list and between white-4 and D&C.
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Michael mechila
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Beijing
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英国计分和意泰战争....确定老外看得懂吗....
 
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Michael mechila
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sankt wrote:
MichaelVal wrote:
sankt wrote:
Usually, held card has a list of priority:

5-Year Plan
UN Intervention(if you don't have a white 4 op in hand)
White 4 ops event playable(if you don't have UN)
Duck & Cover(the greatest US headline of T3, equals at least 5 vps)
Defectors (make your headline uninterrupted)
Other white cards


I'm all on board with holding Marshall or MDP if the event would be fully effective for the USA. But, hold NATO over D&C, 5YP or NORAD? That would not be my inclination. Why do you believe that triggering the NATO event is so bad for Soviets?


I think NATO worth >3ops on average, as Flower Power also (but NATO is cheaper), but due to this game is lack of OPs, these 2 cards can hardly be triggered actively. However, the only 2 white events I think that US should NEVER trigger are Formosan Resolution and NORAD.

When Euro is 3-2 in Turn 3, sometimes playing NATO means you almost give up Europe, and also trigger English Scoring. Otherwise you still have a Italy-Thailand war chance, while Marshall is not. Also, Marshall can induce the US control of Greece and Turkey, which are TOTALLY waste.
(That is, if it's UK5-WG4-FR4-IT4, you should give Marshall, if 5-4-3-2, then NATO)

It also depends on where English Scoring is, triggering 2 English Scorings = a dominance VP in EU/AS.

Edit: Sorry, I-P war should be in the list and between white-4 and D&C.


原来可以quote......
 
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Drew Lawson
United States
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sankt wrote:
MichaelVal wrote:
sankt wrote:
Usually, held card has a list of priority:

5-Year Plan
UN Intervention(if you don't have a white 4 op in hand)
White 4 ops event playable(if you don't have UN)
Duck & Cover(the greatest US headline of T3, equals at least 5 vps)
Defectors (make your headline uninterrupted)
Other white cards


I'm all on board with holding Marshall or MDP if the event would be fully effective for the USA. But, hold NATO over D&C, 5YP or NORAD? That would not be my inclination. Why do you believe that triggering the NATO event is so bad for Soviets?


I think NATO worth >3ops on average, as Flower Power also (but NATO is cheaper), but due to this game is lack of OPs, these 2 cards can hardly be triggered actively. However, the only 2 white events I think that US should NEVER trigger are Formosan Resolution and NORAD.

When Euro is 3-2 in Turn 3, sometimes playing NATO means you almost give up Europe, and also trigger English Scoring. Otherwise you still have a Italy-Thailand war chance, while Marshall is not. Also, Marshall can induce the US control of Greece and Turkey, which are TOTALLY waste.
(That is, if it's UK5-WG4-FR4-IT4, you should give Marshall, if 5-4-3-2, then NATO)

It also depends on where English Scoring is, triggering 2 English Scorings = a dominance VP in EU/AS.

Edit: Sorry, I-P war should be in the list and between white-4 and D&C.


Why do you think the US should never trigger NORAD? Especially if it goes off turn 1 or 2, it will be nearly guaranteed to pay back its ops. And it will do it more efficiently (don't need 2 ops to break control) and effectively (allows you to flip or threaten flipping important battlegrounds). It's a strong counter to the AR1 USSR coup and the threat is a big deal, even if Quagmire eventually cancels it.

And I'm assuming that English Scoring is Special Relationship with NATO active (because of the 2 VPs) and Italy-Thailand War is Brush War (presumably those two countries are the only common targets in Chinese play?).
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Kris Wei
China
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NORAD needs 5 ops(3 for event and 2 for Canada), on average it needs 5 turns to pay it back(so it's Turn 6-7, while Quagmire is a mid-war card) and, FREE 3op in Early turns are precious, you need to take France/Egypt+Libya/Paki-India-Maybe Burma/Thailand/Military Operation in T1.

I don't deny NORAD is annoying to AR1 USSR coup,(That's why USSR also don't want to play it) but also, its effect is denied by the STRONGEST headlines of USA(T2/3: D&C, Midwar: Grains/Junta/Cuban Crisis). you might not give up headline these just for 1op, right?

I think NORAD* is a nice design, it makes both side don't want to play it as event, or they might pay the prize
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Alex
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sankt wrote:
NORAD needs 5 ops(3 for event and 2 for Canada), on average it needs 5 turns to pay it back(so it's Turn 6-7, while Quagmire is a mid-war card) and, FREE 3op in Early turns are precious, you need to take France/Egypt+Libya/Paki-India-Maybe Burma/Thailand/Military Operation in T1.


Influence from NORAD are most often placed in opponent controlled countries. Which is worth 2 ops each.
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King in Green
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If Canada is at 3 or 4*/0 and there are many countries which have US & USSR influence then a turn 3 Norad can be a decent investment. After all, if it comes back around turn 9 then it's almost a free 3 op for the USSR. It's a gamble of course though.
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Ben Kyo
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afafard wrote:
sankt wrote:
NORAD needs 5 ops(3 for event and 2 for Canada), on average it needs 5 turns to pay it back(so it's Turn 6-7, while Quagmire is a mid-war card) and, FREE 3op in Early turns are precious, you need to take France/Egypt+Libya/Paki-India-Maybe Burma/Thailand/Military Operation in T1.


Influence from NORAD are most often placed in opponent controlled countries. Which is worth 2 ops each.

It's only "worth" 2 OPs when you can follow through, and the value of it forcing your opponent to play an influence AR instead of something else is hard to quantify. You can't just simply say that every point of influence from NORAD into a USSR controlled country has a 2 OP value.
Anyway, I like sankt's analysis, mainly because it coincides with my own =P

EDIT: That said, I do think there are some circumstances in which NORAD play is acceptable for US. Like when Marshall Plan and Special Relationship are both triggered to fill Canada for "free" (though SR into France is often better), the US is under Red Scare, and there are a couple of BGs with mixed influence.
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Jamie Pollock
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When I'm USA in Turn 1 or Turn 2 I'd more often than not play NORAD for Ops. The only circumstances I might play as an event is if Canada is already at 4 through Marshall Plan and Special Relationship.

As the USSR, I'd almost certainly avoid triggering NORAD and typically it would be one of my Turn 3 space races. Only if I was steamrollering or in desperate needs of Ops to avoid a region score would I consider playing it for Ops.

NORAD's power is more than simply evaluating the Ops reward you get from going to DEFCON 2. If the USSR hasn't overcontrolled countries and there are USA ops in them, then it can lead to BG swaps in pivotal areas - e.g. South Korea or France.
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