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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Guide to Range and LOS rss

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Paul Smithe
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After many questions and discussions about these concepts, I'm happy to announce that I've put together a tutorial document for range and line of sight in Descent. I hope this will be helpful for new players as well as for journeying veterans with questions.

All of the information in the guide represents the RAW as best I understand them. While LOS in particular has many house rules floating around, I think knowing the RAW is an important step to deciding whether or not to implement house rules, and for determining how abilities are intended to work.

You'll notice that this is version 2. If you've got questions, comments, or feedback, please let me know. Thanks!

BGG Filepage link: http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/135144/guide-range-and-los...
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Silidus
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Thanks Zaltyre, nice work as always.
 
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Always good to have clarifications like this.

I have two questions/clarifications (that may simply be due to my inexperience):

1. Diagram 8 explains the Ettin Reach example. If I understand it correctly, RAW say that Reach can target a figure up to 2 spaces away, but you still need LOS to perform the attack. In the official rulebook, Page 12 [Combat - 1. Declare Weapon and Target], it states that "A figure may only target a space in his line of sight." So Diagram 8 is simply giving a visual example of this, right? While the Ettin is 2 spaces away for movement/engagement purposes, the range on his LOS is 3; therefore he cannot use Reach (melee range 2).

2. Diagram 15 explanation is correct, but the wording in the paragraph below it is confusing. In particular, the statement reading, "The presence of the door and overgrowth do not prevent a LOS from being traced since they do not cause the middle spaces to be blocked." You may consider rewording that to something along the lines of, "However, A can trace LOS to D as shown - the presence of the door and overgrowth do not prevent LOS from being drawn since the two middle spaces are blocked by either obstacle."

3. Here's my editorial comment - reading "a figure can trace a LOS" versus "a figure can trace LOS" hurts my head a little. You may consider removing 'a' before 'LOS' to make it flow off the tongue a bit better.

Thanks for putting this together - very helpful to have some additional concrete (and more complex) situations discussed.
 
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Paul Smithe
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nicoga3000 wrote:
Always good to have clarifications like this.

I have two questions/clarifications (that may simply be due to my inexperience):

1. Diagram 8 explains the Ettin Reach example. If I understand it correctly, RAW say that Reach can target a figure up to 2 spaces away, but you still need LOS to perform the attack. In the official rulebook, Page 12 [Combat - 1. Declare Weapon and Target], it states that "A figure may only target a space in his line of sight." So Diagram 8 is simply giving a visual example of this, right? While the Ettin is 2 spaces away for movement/engagement purposes, the range on his LOS is 3; therefore he cannot use Reach (melee range 2).

2. Diagram 15 explanation is correct, but the wording in the paragraph below it is confusing. In particular, the statement reading, "The presence of the door and overgrowth do not prevent a LOS from being traced since they do not cause the middle spaces to be blocked." You may consider rewording that to something along the lines of, "However, A can trace LOS to D as shown - the presence of the door and overgrowth do not prevent LOS from being drawn since the two middle spaces are blocked by either obstacle."

3. Here's my editorial comment - reading "a figure can trace a LOS" versus "a figure can trace LOS" hurts my head a little. You may consider removing 'a' before 'LOS' to make it flow off the tongue a bit better.

Thanks for putting this together - very helpful to have some additional concrete (and more complex) situations discussed.


Thank you for the feedback.

1. Someone else has already asked me about Diagram 8, and I have realized I explained it a little counter-intuitively. Diagram 8 works best if you imagine the hero attacking the Ettin instead. The hero can count over the obstacle to the Ettin with a range to 2, as shown. However, the only space of the Ettin that he has LOS to (the bottom right space) is 3 spaces away (as shown). Therefore, that space is the only one he can declare as the target space. Since he must measure range to the target space when attacking (3) , the Ettin is out of range for a reach attack (max 2). Is that clearer?

2. Thank you. I'll see if I can make that cleaner in the next version.

3. Sorry for the headache. Sometimes I think of the process "tracing line of sight" and sometimes I think of the line itself being traced, "tracing a line of sight". I'll attempt to clean that up in the next version as well.
 
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zaltyre wrote:

Thank you for the feedback.

1. Someone else has already asked me about Diagram 8, and I have realized I explained it a little counter-intuitively. Diagram 8 works best if you imagine the hero attacking the Ettin instead. The hero can count over the obstacle to the Ettin with a range to 2, as shown. However, the only space of the Ettin that he has LOS to (the bottom right space) is 3 spaces away (as shown). Therefore, that space is the only one he can declare as the target space. Since he must measure range to the target space when attacking (3) , the Ettin is out of range for a reach attack (max 2). Is that clearer?

2. Thank you. I'll see if I can make that cleaner in the next version.

3. Sorry for the headache. Sometimes I think of the process "tracing line of sight" and sometimes I think of the line itself being traced, "tracing a line of sight". I'll attempt to clean that up in the next version as well.


1. Yeah, I think just explaining how range, LOS, and the Reach ability work in conjunction with one another will help.

3. I totally know what you mean. It's more an editorial comment than it is an actual content comment.

I do have a request for your first update/rev.

In the Unofficial FFG FAQ, this comment comes up:

----------------------------------
Q: When counting range for an attack, is there any difference between spaces containing figure and obstacle-spaces? Is counting through obstacles forbidden?

A: Figures are not considered obstacles by the rules [when counting spaces for attack range or skills], so you could count through those spaces but not through obstacles.

[Note: Don't confuse counting spaces with drawing line of sight - Spaces containing figures cannot have line of sight drawn through them per the Line of Sight rules on page 12 of the Rulebook]

----------------------------------

Can you produce an example or two that clarifies this comment and shows how and when it would be applicable? In particular, the comment regarding LOS vs spaces and how range or whatever would play a role?
 
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Paul Smithe
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nicoga3000,

If I'm not mistaken, the distinction between counting though a figure and counting through obstacle terrain is illustrated by Diagram 6, second column from the right, in the top and middle rows. In the top row, you've got a monster figure that you count right through (range from A to B is 2). In the middle row, there is obstacle terrain which must be counted around. Even though A and B have not moved, the range is now 4. Does that cover it?
 
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Sadgit
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I understand and agree with your reasoning concerning the Ettin in diagram 8 (left panel).

Yesterday evening something like this here happened (right panel):


Distance (red line, 2 spaces) and LOS (blue line, 3 spaces) are counted from the same space the Ettin occupies. I just want to confirm that the Ettin can attack Astarra here.
 
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Proto Persona
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Sadgit wrote:
I understand and agree with your reasoning concerning the Ettin in diagram 8 (left panel).

Yesterday evening something like this here happened (right panel):


Distance (red line, 2 spaces) and LOS (blue line, 3 spaces) are counted from the same space the Ettin occupies. I just want to confirm that the Ettin can attack Astarra here.

Yeah I'd say that's legal by the RAW.
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Paul Smithe
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Agreed. Ettin can attack Astarra, and if Astarra had a reach melee attack, she could attack the Ettin, too.
 
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Carsten Summer
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Do we have an official response for the question if the diagramm 8 ettin can attack the hero ?
 
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Paul Smithe
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carsten1977 wrote:
Do we have an official response for the question if the diagramm 8 ettin can attack the hero ?


Yes, I was just about to post that. Short explanation: The attacker needs to be able to fulfill both range AND LOS requirements to the target space. In the case of a large monster, notably, the range and LOS can be measured from separate spaces, so long as they both measure TO the target space. In other words, in Diagram 8, let's call the Ettin's upper right space E1, his lower right space E2, and the hero's space space H. In this case, both figures have reach:

Range between E1 and H is 2, there is no LOS.
Range between E2 and H is 3, there is LOS.

For the Ettin attacking the hero, target space is H. He has the proper range via E1, and LOS via E2. He can attack.

For the hero, if he makes E1 his target space, there is no LOS. If he makes E2 his target space, the range is too far for a reach. He cannot attack.

I'll make an update for the next version accordingly.

Transcribed Q/A below:

Quote:
Rules Question:
When attacking (or being attacked by) a large monster with Reach, does range need to be determined by the target space, or by any space of the monster? For example, please consider the following diagram: http://i.imgur.com/WhAUtl4.jpg The top right space of the monster is 2 spaces from the hero, but there is no LOS. The bottom right space of the monster is 3 spaces from the hero, and there is LOS. Can the monster attack the hero (with reach)? Can the hero attack the monster (with reach)? Thanks!


Quote:
Given the following lines from the rulebook, the space targeted needs to be the same space traced to:
-The attack player declare which space his figure is attacking.
-A figure may only target a space in his line of sight.
-A figure making a Melee attack can target an adjacent space.
-The Reach keyword allows the figure to use a Melee attack to target a figure up to two spaces away … The target still needs to be in line of sight.

Yes, Reach allows the player to target a figure two spaces away, but the attack may still "only target a space in his line of sight." Nowhere does it state that you need to count and trace from the same space nor would I want to make that requirement.



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Paul Smithe
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I just uploaded version 2 to the file section, it should post within the next few days. Diagram 8 (the ettin) has been corrected to reflect the FFG rules response, and a few other sections have received improvements to make them more understandable.
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Aswin Agastya
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You really need to make the wall in diagram 8 thicker. I almost didn't see it.

However:
Sadgit wrote:
I understand and agree with your reasoning concerning the Ettin in diagram 8 (left panel).

Yesterday evening something like this here happened (right panel):


Distance (red line, 2 spaces) and LOS (blue line, 3 spaces) are counted from the same space the Ettin occupies. I just want to confirm that the Ettin can attack Astarra here.

I don't see why blue line on the picture on the right side distance is 3 spaces.
 
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Fox Reinard
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From that line, Range passes through two empty spaces before hitting the hero in space #3.
 
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Aswin Agastya
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foxreinard wrote:
From that line, Range passes through two empty spaces before hitting the hero in space #3.


I don't think so. Space is still counted from the lower right space of the Ettin to the hero, hence 2 spaces.

Quote:
Counting Spaces
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the
target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities,
players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on
page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for
the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified
number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted.
However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces
through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent.


Only doors, walls and obstacles (spaces with red border) blocks counting spaces.

Remamber that LoS and counting spaces (for distance/range) are two different issues.
 
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Fox Reinard
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The blue line shows the LOS range is 3. The red line shows the distance from hero to Ettin is 2 spaces. I answered the question as I understood it

You are correct in that the ettin is 2 spaces away and thus Reach lets it attack the hero. Line of sight is still a requirement so that was measured too in the same diagram. That's why the blue line shows a range of 3.
 
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Aswin Agastya
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Nope. Correct that LoS is by blue line, but space is counted independently from the LoS. Hence you can count space through the goblin.

If you check diagram 8 of Paul's document, he specifically used obstacle and wall.

Additional quote from his document:

"Closed doors, obstacles, map edges, and old walls (from “Mists of Bilehall”.)
Not being able to count through a space containing the above objects may make a longer path (and therefore a
longer range) necessary. All other types of terrain, open doors, figures, tokens, overgrowth (from “Labyrinth of
Ruin”), and portcullises (from “Shadow of Nerekhall”) do not interfere with adjacency. Therefore, these things
can be completely ignored when determining range. Remember, the key factor is whether or not adjacency
exists. The diagram below shows the effect of such things on range, if any. Refer to quest special rules for
additional restrictions (for example, in some quests in “Shadow of Nerekhall”, range cannot be counted
through portcullises). "
 
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Paul Smithe
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I tried making the line noticeably thicker than the grid surrounding it, but I can do more.

Sadgit was asking in that question whether range had to be counted along the line of sight (from the lower right space of the ettin, through the two spaces the line passes through, to the target space). Range does not need to be counted this way. The range can be counted via a different path as long as it goes from a space of the attacking figure (it does not need to be the space where LOS originates) to the target space. The new diagram 8 clarifies this by explaining that the ettin can attack the hero, but the hero cannot attack the ettin.
 
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Fox Reinard
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If it were me I'd put the red line as a solid one with arrows at either end. It wouldn't significantly conceal the goblin archer.
 
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Sadgit
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I made the right image just to clarify a question here on the board. It is not included in Zalts great guide. However, at the moment we are working on a Reference Guide that will include illustrations like this. I think, it will show attacks as red arrows and LOS as blue lines (maybe dashed).
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