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High Frontier (3rd edition)» Forums » General

Subject: July 27 update rss

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John Connors
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So, I missed the KS, but signed up for a pre-order. But as a non-backer, I can't see the July 27 update on the KS.

Any good news inside?
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Brett Burleigh II
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update 30 wrote:

Over the coming days we are going to update with images and hopefully some positive production details. The communication deficit has engendered much understandable distrust with the backers. At no point has it been our intention to misinform any of you. We have made mistakes in time frame estimates for the completion of the project, obviously. Each time we have thought the end was in sight and said things were almost ready, issues that required changes to the printed materials have caused delays that have taken an absurd amount of time to fix.

We decided to use clear blue beads as water tokens, thinking that they would be preferable for game play, being easier to pick up off the board. Drake, a High Frontier play-tester gave us very adamant feedback that making the water tokens stackable was more important than ease of handling. Because we had originally listed the beads as an upgrade for this version of the game, and because some backers voiced upset at the change, we decided to include both the beads and the flat transparent disks. This has apparently caused at least one backer to be upset over the fact that the game inventory on the print material does not reflect this inclusion.

The print bureau DID NOT send prototypes of the boxes, maps, or boards. We have posted photos of the prototype/samples of the rockets and wooden pieces and disks. Lacking the actual components, we are posting the art that has been submitted to the print bureau.on his edits and went back over the books to make clarifications as it seems there was (wait for it) a miscommunication about a major portion of the footnotes included by Phil Eklund. Our production team is now making the edits to the text. This has not caused a huge additional delay as the print bureau has sought clarification on final counts on the plastic components. But really, any and every delay is beyond painful at this point and we know it.

Drake read the feedback and Over the coming days we are going to update with images and hopefully some positive production details. The communication deficit has engendered much understandable distrust with the backers. At no point has it been our intention to misinform any of you. We have made mistakes in time frame estimates for the completion of the project, obviously. Each time we have thought the end was in sight and said things were almost ready, issues that required changes to the printed materials have caused delays that have taken an absurd amount of time to fix.


There's a couple of pictures, but I'm on mobile and I'm not going to post them right now, sorry.
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Donald Cleary
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The publisher has been making design decisions not based on game play. That is unfortunate.
 
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Isaac Shalev
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The entire campaign, from communication to production and design, as been unfortunate.
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Lior A
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ender7 wrote:
The entire campaign, from communication to production and design, as been unfortunate.


As long as the final product is good, we'll live.
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Isaac Shalev
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There is every indication that the final product is not going to be good. The 'final' rules are bad. The component pictures are bad. The production quality has been bad.
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Lior A
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ender7 wrote:
There is every indication that the final product is not going to be good. The 'final' rules are bad. The component pictures are bad. The production quality has been bad.


Final rules are bad? Really? After all the changes they made from the feedback they got when they first released the final rules?
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Bruce
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Badigel wrote:
Final rules are bad? Really? After all the changes they made from the feedback they got when they first released the final rules?

Isn't that Isaac's point? That they took so long to release the "final" rules and then the feedback was so bad that they had to get one of the playtesters to edit the rules?

I'm not saying that the final product will definitely be bad. But their track record running the Kickstarter to date hasn't been great and I understand why people think that the final product might be bad (or at least that the final product will not be the high quality, definitive version that was promised at the beginning of the campaign).
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Colm McCarthy
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"Definitive version" and "Phil Eklund" are two terms that will never go together. I'm surprised when I order directly from SMG not to find hand-written annotations to the rules hastily scrawled on the envelope

As long as the rulebooks are as up-to-datish as they can be and the components are as decent as the 2nd edition's, then bring it on already.
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Donald Cleary
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I would expect Phil's games to need a printout of some living rules later, especially this one, but I don't expect to replace a bunch of game parts for his games.
 
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Bruce
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colmmccarthy wrote:
"Definitive version" and "Phil Eklund" are two terms that will never go together. I'm surprised when I order directly from SMG not to find hand-written annotations to the rules hastily scrawled on the envelope

As long as the rulebooks are as up-to-datish as they can be and the components are as decent as the 2nd edition's, then bring it on already.

You have to be careful about using terms like "never".

Straight from the Kickstarter page, here's what Ares/OSS promised with respect to those two terms (I added the bold formatting):
Quote:
Now, One Small Step intends to bring you the definitive version of this game. Five additional years of honing, shaping, play-testing, and development has brought High Frontier to a point where the designer as well as the players believe the system has stabilized, with minimum likelihood of additional major rules changes or alterations to the game.


As for the components, the issue about what backers should have expected when Ares/OSS promised that the game would be produced "to the highest possible material standards" has been covered on BGG and the Kickstarter comments already.

So if Ares had said they were just reprinting HF, I'd agree with your comment. But rules that are "up-to-datish" and components of the same quality as the 2nd edition don't match up to the commitments made by Ares/OSS during the Kickstarter campaign.
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Bruce
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For people who pre-ordered, FYI here's the latest update (update 31):

Quote:
Here is the art from the Playmats.

The updated rule book files have received another "final" once over from production and now the print bureau has them. (The term final has been subjective on this project.)

The ball is still slowly rolling!


I'm not able to post the pictures right now, sorry!
 
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Bruce
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Although I suspect the pictures in update 31 aren't the "final" playmat pictures since I just noticed this comment from Drake about those playmat pictures:
Quote:
Are these the latest files? If so, none of the errors on the playmat I reported were corrected...
 
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Colm McCarthy
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Hawkman81 wrote:
You have to be careful about using terms like "never".


Not with Phil Eklund, I don't.

Quote:
Straight from the Kickstarter page, here's what Ares/OSS promised with respect to those two terms (I added the bold formatting):


I added some bold formatting too. See how it changes the meaning?

Quote:
Now, One Small Step intends to bring you the definitive version of this game. Five additional years of honing, shaping, play-testing, and development has brought High Frontier to a point where the designer as well as the players believe the system has stabilized, with minimum likelihood of additional major rules changes or alterations to the game.


Quote:
As for the components, the issue about what backers should have expected when Ares/OSS promised that the game would be produced "to the highest possible material standards" has been covered on BGG and the Kickstarter comments already.


That depends entirely upon one's definition of what the "highest possible material standards" means. To some it means physical quality, to others it means to bling the shit out of. Those expecting the latter, and there are many on KS, will be sorely and no doubt vocally disappointed.

Personally, I'll just be glad when the thing is finally produced and I don't have to read all of these updates on KS and BGG. Between the lack of communication from the producer, and the toxic comments from some backers, this has been the ugliest KS I've ever backed.
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Mike Urban
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colmmccarthy wrote:


Personally, I'll just be glad when the thing is finally produced and I don't have to read all of these updates on KS and BGG. Between the lack of communication from the producer, and the toxic comments from some backers, this has been the ugliest KS I've ever backed.


But what does this mean for Up Front?
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Bruce
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colmmccarthy wrote:
I added some bold formatting too. See how it changes the meaning?

Um, it doesn't change anything. Just like any other Kickstarter creator, OSS intends to give its backers a reward which in this case OSS identified as the definitive version of HF. Your second set of bold text also confirms that backers were led to believe that this would be the definitive version. OSS told backers that even Mr. Ecklund believed the system had stabilized and additional major changes had a "minimum likelihood". I don't see how this is controversial given that OSS clearly marketed this version as the definitive version of HF. OSS even said this on the Kickstarter page:
Quote:
The 3rd edition is the definitive edition of High Frontier including:


colmmccarthy wrote:
That depends entirely upon one's definition of what the "highest possible material standards" means. To some it means physical quality, to others it means to bling the shit out of. Those expecting the latter, and there are many on KS, will be sorely and no doubt vocally disappointed.

As I said, what backers expected from components is already covered in comments elsewhere. I'm not going to repeat those comments here other than to point out that there is a middle ground that you're ignoring: people who aren't expecting diamond encrusted life-size replicas of the lunar lander (bling) with the game but who also don't think that components equivalent to the components included in the 2nd edition meet the standard of "highest possible material standards".

colmmccarthy wrote:
Personally, I'll just be glad when the thing is finally produced and I don't have to read all of these updates on KS and BGG. Between the lack of communication from the producer, and the toxic comments from some backers, this has been the ugliest KS I've ever backed.

Honestly, no one is forcing you to read updates. As for communication, at least OSS has improved their communication over the last 2 months. It's way better than it was before and I think OSS should get credit for that.
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Joel Tamburo
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If they have to postpone production so that the rules and charts and map are fully up to date they should do so. It is pretty important that this version play properly out of the box.
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Ola Mikael Hansson
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Yeah, my main worry is not the delays, but that the final product will still have errors in it.
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Joel Tamburo
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unic wrote:
Yeah, my main worry is not the delays, but that the final product will still have errors in it.


This is my chief worry too. High Frontier has been plagued by poorly written (both in terms of errors and just obscurely worded) rules its entire life. Then again, rules like that are an issue with every Sierra Madre game. But the game really is not THAT complex to play - and a KS special edition should have rules reorganized and rewritten from the ground up for ease of comprehension.
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Leo Borg
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Joelist wrote:
unic wrote:
Yeah, my main worry is not the delays, but that the final product will still have errors in it.


This is my chief worry too. High Frontier has been plagued by poorly written (both in terms of errors and just obscurely worded) rules its entire life. Then again, rules like that are an issue with every Sierra Madre game. But the game really is not THAT complex to play - and a KS special edition should have rules reorganized and rewritten from the ground up for ease of comprehension.


That was exactly what I thought they would deliver, but now I don't know what we will get....
 
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