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Dune» Forums » Rules

Subject: Do public deals for information have to be truthful? rss

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Jim Cote
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For example, I publicly pay a player for info on a Traitor card of mine they saw during setup. Do they have to tell the truth?
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Shawn Garbett
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ekted wrote:
For example, I publicly pay a player for info on a Traitor card of mine they saw during setup. Do they have to tell the truth?


Yes.

XIII.C Bribery wrote:
Players can make any kind of verbal deals or bribes between
one another. Once made, these deals and bribes must be
stated aloud and must be honored. A player cannot renege on
a deal or bribe. Spice can be part of the bribe or deal.


Family honor in the Dune universe is very important, and all deals must be honored as such.
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Jim Cote
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So, say a player pays Atreides for information about Treachery card(s). Does that information have to be stated publicly? Can it be given in secret as part of a public deal? And if so, since it is secret, does it then have to be truthful? May Atreides actually show Treachery card(s) to one or more players?
 
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Aaron Bredon
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Players have to abide by the publicly agreed upon terms of the deal.
If a deal includes the stipulation that Player A will honestly reveal a safe leader to Player B, then Player A must honestly reveal a safe leader to Player B. Player A may do this in a private discussion if the players wish.
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Shawn Garbett
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ekted wrote:
So, say a player pays Atreides for information about Treachery card(s). Does that information have to be stated publicly? Can it be given in secret as part of a public deal? And if so, since it is secret, does it then have to be truthful? May Atreides actually show Treachery card(s) to one or more players?


It must be truthful. The rules do not exclude secrecy, our table allows it.
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Brad Johnson
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I fully agree with both Shawn and Aaron.
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Klaude Thomas
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CyberGarp wrote:
ekted wrote:
So, say a player pays Atreides for information about Treachery card(s). Does that information have to be stated publicly? Can it be given in secret as part of a public deal? And if so, since it is secret, does it then have to be truthful? May Atreides actually show Treachery card(s) to one or more players?


It must be truthful. The rules do not exclude secrecy, our table allows it.

It has to be stated publicly unless the players are allied. The reason is that the rules for Alliances specify that allies can speak in private (XII.E.2.). That rule would have no meaning if non-allies can also speak in private.
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sam newman

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vonklaude wrote:
CyberGarp wrote:
ekted wrote:
So, say a player pays Atreides for information about Treachery card(s). Does that information have to be stated publicly? Can it be given in secret as part of a public deal? And if so, since it is secret, does it then have to be truthful? May Atreides actually show Treachery card(s) to one or more players?


It must be truthful. The rules do not exclude secrecy, our table allows it.

It has to be stated publicly unless the players are allied. The reason is that the rules for Alliances specify that allies can speak in private (XII.E.2.). That rule would have no meaning if non-allies can also speak in private.


This is how i thought the rules were, but in some games i have had people getting rather upset because they were convinced they could trade information secretly with anyone.
 
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Shawn Garbett
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vonklaude makes a good point as to the rule being implicit.

However, there's no call to get upset. There's always table or house rules. You don't like them, find another table.

It's almost never come up in the 100+ games I've played. No one wants to trade or sell anything unless they are allied.
 
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Brad Johnson
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We actually usually have TONS of negotiations and agreements between non-allies.

Common examples include:
* Pay spice for card info
* Pay spice for safe leader info
* Share spice from spice blows to avoid fighting each other over it
* Blocking of strongholds with arranged battle results
* "Rebate" of shipping or card costs in exchange for other favors
* etc, etc
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Shawn Garbett
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Hmmm. I now know what I must do--Start making some deals next time we play.
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Klaude Thomas
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tempus42 wrote:
We actually usually have TONS of negotiations and agreements between non-allies.

Common examples include:
* Pay spice for card info
* Pay spice for safe leader info
* Share spice from spice blows to avoid fighting each other over it
* Blocking of strongholds with arranged battle results
* "Rebate" of shipping or card costs in exchange for other favors
* etc, etc

Discussions between non-allies that everyone can hear are fine, I believe. The Alliance rules only forestall private communication between non-allies. Also stressing that as usual I'm speaking from the point of view of the original, unmodified RAW and not making any claim about fun or balance. Under the Bribery rules, non-allies can make deals. Which I would say must be made in the open as XIII.C. would seem to confirm. Possibly RAW does not permit even allies to make binding Bribery deals secretly because presumably the point of the words "out loud" must be to preclude doing so in a forest where no one can hear, but allies can certainly work out their intended terms secretly and exchange information about the game while doing that. Since those things would form strategy.

As you know (and as Kittredge specified in his answers to the FAQ) I believe that the Bribery rules do not provide a mechanism for exchanging spice. However, all of your examples can be achieved through agreements making use of the Alliance rules and/or harmonious positioning. For example I can make a binding deal out loud with a non-ally to yield a spice blow or pay for something at a future time when we are allied. With allies, I can agree to pay for certain things directly in exchange for whatever favour I am chasing.

That said, I'm conscious that many people ignore that and play that contrary to what I think, Bribery does cover exchanging spice... and nothing bad happens to their game! (Other than that they have no explanation of the purpose of the Emperor's alliance advantage or Alliance rules such as XII.E.3 which become empty of meaning.) Note that I also accept your point (in an earlier discussion) that the AH designers added things that contradict the original designers' intentions. However, I believe that a concordant set of rules arises from the RAW provided that, that one line about "Spice can be part of the bribe or deal" be read to agree with Kittredge's FAQ answers.
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sam newman

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tempus42 wrote:
We actually usually have TONS of negotiations and agreements between non-allies.

Common examples include:
* Pay spice for card info
* Pay spice for safe leader info
* Share spice from spice blows to avoid fighting each other over it
* Blocking of strongholds with arranged battle results
* "Rebate" of shipping or card costs in exchange for other favors
* etc, etc


The more times we play as a group the more strategy we find in each factions traits. But at the same time the bigger the gap between an experienced player and a new player becomes. This has cuased new players to really feel helpless in a game of dune especially when they dont quite understand their faction or they simply arent the "screw you over" type of player. Also grudges can be an issue, in Dune people do screw each other over all the time and some players take it a little to personally which usually results in their own downfall as they try to get even.

At first we found Harkonnen to be just to strong early game, but learning how to play atreides and take advantage of selling information has reduced that gap between the 2 factions.
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Dan Nunuyerbiznez
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XIII.C Bribery wrote:
Players can make any kind of verbal deals or bribes between
one another. Once made, these deals and bribes must be
stated aloud and must be honored. A player cannot renege on
a deal or bribe. Spice can be part of the bribe or deal.


The way I read this is that the deal must be public, but any information transferred need not be. I mean, why would I pay for information to be made public (yeah, there are circumstances where that would be a good deal).

Maybe that is just me...

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