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Tyler Gobe
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With the way this election has been going, I could see a Third Party candidate really thinking they have a chance. Someone on the Right can offer a sane choice opposed to Trump, and someone on the Left could appeal to the Bernie Bros. who feel cheated and disenfranchised... or the Jenny McCarthy followers.

Jill Stein, who is a Harvard educated doctor, seems to be pandering to the anti-science crowd recently. First she affirmed people's questions about vaccines:

The Guardian wrote:
“I think there’s no question that vaccines have been absolutely critical in ridding us of the scourge of many diseases,” she told the Post, citing the efficacy of vaccination against smallpox, polio and other diseases. She then questioned regulators, and by extension the vaccines they approve, saying: “People do not trust a Food and Drug Administration, or even the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] for that matter, where corporate influence and the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of influence.”

...

Speaking to the Post on Friday, Stein claimed that she remembered, from her time practicing medicine, that “there were concerns among physicians about what the vaccination schedule meant, the toxic substances like mercury which used to be rampant in vaccines”.


She also raised questions about GMO Foods. Both vaccines and GMO foods have been shown to be safe in almost all independent testing.

While you could argue she was just speaking against the big money interests in those regulatory bodies, she has also deleted a Tweet that read “There’s no evidence that autism is caused by vaccines” and replaced it with one that read "I'm not aware of evidence linking autism with vaccines. Let's do more to support autistic people & their families." A minor change that definitely moves her towards the anti-vax camp.

Now a video has surfaced where she seems to say WiFi will harm kid's brains:
Quote:
Person from crowd: My school district is rapidly moving towards one-to-one computers. Can you speak to the health issues? [inaudible with clapping]

Jill Stein: Wonderful, health issues... social issues... you name it. But to be staring at screens... we already know that kids who get put in front of TVs instead of interacting, this is not good in all kinds of ways. And it’s just not good for their cognitive, it’s not good for their social development, I mean, that is incredible that kids in kindergarten... We should be moving away from screens at all levels of education, not moving into them.

And this is another corporate ruse. This is another gimmick to try to make a buck. To make big bucks in fact. And education, and teachers, and communities suffer. So we need to stand up to that.

Person from crowd: What about the wireless?

Jill Stein: We should not be subjecting kids’ brains especially to that. And we don’t follow that issue in this country, but in Europe where they do, they have good precautions around wireless—maybe not good enough, because it’s very hard to study this stuff. We make guinea pigs out of whole populations and then we discover how many die. And this is like the paradigm for how public health works in this country and it’s outrageous, you know.


It's clear that Jill Stein is NOT a reasonable alternative to Hillary, and that she is trying to align herself as close as she can to the Anti-Science part of the Left without having to say anything to directly support or deny their claims.
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Chris
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I got news for you, greenies are part of the crowd that is anti-vaccine and GMO's. So if you are running on for that party it makes perfect sense to say that stuff.
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Josh
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Yeah, the Green Party is basically the hard elements of the old greenleace movement.
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galad2003 wrote:
I got news for you, greenies are part of the crowd that is anti-vaccine and GMO's. So if you are running on for that party it makes perfect sense to say that stuff.


Reasons I can't see supporting the Greens. Anti-vaxxers piss me off.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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TylerGoble1 wrote:
While you could argue she was just speaking against the big money interests in those regulatory bodies,
You not only could, you'd be absolutely right.
TylerGoble1 wrote:
she has also deleted a Tweet that read “There’s no evidence that autism is caused by vaccines” and replaced it with one that read "I'm not aware of evidence linking autism with vaccines. Let's do more to support autistic people & their families." A minor change that definitely moves her towards the anti-vax camp.
Wait a minute, you know how science works right? You are going to call her out for taking out an absolute statement she couldn't back up and put in an accurate statement instead? Science is about accuracy. Saying there is no evidence when she hasn't read every single study from every single researcher would be lying. You might think that is OK because you are calloused to it from Clinton, but I think it is better she be as accurate as possible.
TylerGoble1 wrote:
Now a video has surfaced where she seems to say WiFi will harm kid's brains:
Is that really what she "seems" to say? First off she doesn't support more screen time for kids, then she says that wifi effects on kids hasn't been studied enough. She DOES not say wifi will hurt their brains at all. If you don't know the difference between "we don't know" and "kids brains are rotting", I'm afraid this science thing isn't for you.
TylerGoble1 wrote:
It's clear that Jill Stein is NOT a reasonable alternative to Hillary,
Now that made me smile, heck the Rent Is Too High guy is a reasonable alternative when compared to Hillary. Heck, at this point Trump is the only person that isn't a reasonable alternative.
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This is something that usually disappoints with Green parties. The Australian Greens are pro vaccination (which is great), but still anti-GMO, which is infuriating. In a strange twist the party leader is rational about GMO, which gives me hope. They got my vote anyway, which then transferred itself to the Labor party through the magic of instant runoff.
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sbszine wrote:
This is something that usually disappoints with Green parties. The Australian Greens are pro vaccination (which is great), but still anti-GMO, which is infuriating. In a strange twist the party leader is rational about GMO, which gives me hope. They got my vote anyway, which then transferred itself to the Labor party through the magic of instant runoff.
It seems every party has a group within it that are irrational.
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TheChin! wrote:
It seems every party has a group within it that are irrational.

The problem comes when that group is in control of the party. The Republicans are in that boat. The American Libertarian Party was during the last US presidential election. Sure they put up Johnson who is sane but they basically refused to disavow white supremacists and ran Jews out of their party. I still have a couple of online friends from those days but that's why I stopped affiliating with the Libertarian Party, back when I could still vote in US elections from overseas.
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As a socialist , she also panders to the anti economics crowd.
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TheChin! wrote:
It seems every party has a group within it that are irrational.
Indeed.
Trump & Calgary Ted pose for photos with fire-&-brimstone anti-gay pastors.
Clinton & Sanders pose for photos with "kill whitey" protesters.
Ron Paul had his photo snapped with fringe wackos of the white supremacist sort.

None of them end up dictating policy (usually) but in the case of a small 3rd-party you go where the votes are, then worry about unseemly associations later.
 
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Tom McVey
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TheChin! wrote:
]Is that really what she "seems" to say? First off she doesn't support more screen time for kids, then she says that wifi effects on kids hasn't been studied enough. She DOES not say wifi will hurt their brains at all.


I don't know whether listening to '90's heavy metal will damage one's cognitive abilities so badly to be unable to spot shameless dogwhistling to believers in new agey anti-science woo, but I believe further research studies should be done. We all know the CDC is in the pocket of Big Metal.
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tmcvey wrote:
I don't know whether listening to '90's heavy metal will damage one's cognitive abilities so badly to be unable to spot shameless dogwhistling to believers in new agey anti-science woo, but I believe further research studies should be done. We all know the CDC is in the pocket of Big Metal.
If she does phrase her comments in accurate, but non-offensive ways to her constituents, does that make her a bad candidate on the same plain as Clinton or Trump? A bad candidate comes right out and says "Chemical Engineers are just wannabe Chemists without the patience for experiment studies", without any evidence. If you want unequivocal claims of absolute certainty, I invite you to research a Theocracy based society.

You know, just by saying that vaccines are so important and necessary she is helping to push her constituents to a more informed position. If she can help educate her supporters by baby stepping them to reality, that makes the world a better place. The hammer of exaggerated certainty doesn't change minds, it just leaves bruises. This way she retains her credibility and integrity by dogwhistling to all the people who do believe vaccines are good and wifi is harmless, while moving the green party closer to a rational position that all it's members can accept.

That's what politicians do, they not only enact their constituents will, they also help mold their constituents by educating them on the issues.

Look, I get it, the Hillary supporters are so rabid to defeat Trump that they will try and blow up every little nit about Stein into a crisis so that Bernie supporters will default to Hillary in resigned defeat. Just like the GOP has been doing to Hillary. The tactic is unseemly when it is used by the GOP and doubly so when used by their victims the Democrats.
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TylerGoble1 wrote:
With the way this election has been going, I could see a Third Party candidate really thinking they have a chance. Someone on the Right can offer a sane choice opposed to Trump, and someone on the Left could appeal to the Bernie Bros. who feel cheated and disenfranchised... or the Jenny McCarthy followers.

Jill Stein, who is a Harvard educated doctor, seems to be pandering to the anti-science crowd recently. First she affirmed people's questions about vaccines:

The Guardian wrote:
“I think there’s no question that vaccines have been absolutely critical in ridding us of the scourge of many diseases,” she told the Post, citing the efficacy of vaccination against smallpox, polio and other diseases. She then questioned regulators, and by extension the vaccines they approve, saying: “People do not trust a Food and Drug Administration, or even the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] for that matter, where corporate influence and the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of influence.”

...

Speaking to the Post on Friday, Stein claimed that she remembered, from her time practicing medicine, that “there were concerns among physicians about what the vaccination schedule meant, the toxic substances like mercury which used to be rampant in vaccines”.


She also raised questions about GMO Foods. Both vaccines and GMO foods have been shown to be safe in almost all independent testing.

While you could argue she was just speaking against the big money interests in those regulatory bodies, she has also deleted a Tweet that read “There’s no evidence that autism is caused by vaccines” and replaced it with one that read "I'm not aware of evidence linking autism with vaccines. Let's do more to support autistic people & their families." A minor change that definitely moves her towards the anti-vax camp.

Now a video has surfaced where she seems to say WiFi will harm kid's brains:
Quote:
Person from crowd: My school district is rapidly moving towards one-to-one computers. Can you speak to the health issues? [inaudible with clapping]

Jill Stein: Wonderful, health issues... social issues... you name it. But to be staring at screens... we already know that kids who get put in front of TVs instead of interacting, this is not good in all kinds of ways. And it’s just not good for their cognitive, it’s not good for their social development, I mean, that is incredible that kids in kindergarten... We should be moving away from screens at all levels of education, not moving into them.

And this is another corporate ruse. This is another gimmick to try to make a buck. To make big bucks in fact. And education, and teachers, and communities suffer. So we need to stand up to that.

Person from crowd: What about the wireless?

Jill Stein: We should not be subjecting kids’ brains especially to that. And we don’t follow that issue in this country, but in Europe where they do, they have good precautions around wireless—maybe not good enough, because it’s very hard to study this stuff. We make guinea pigs out of whole populations and then we discover how many die. And this is like the paradigm for how public health works in this country and it’s outrageous, you know.


It's clear that Jill Stein is NOT a reasonable alternative to Hillary, and that she is trying to align herself as close as she can to the Anti-Science part of the Left without having to say anything to directly support or deny their claims.


    That's pretty weak tea you're drinking. I'm as skeptical as they come, and I don't think any of the comments you quoted are even remotely close to pandering. Scientists question things. "Concerns among physicians about what the vaccination schedule meant" (a comment taken out of a much larder response I'm sure) is a far cry from what the anti-vaxxers are pushing. There's a difference between asking if mercury in vaccines is appropriate and declaring it causes autism.

    My kid's high school has 25 computers in every room. They're nice machines but each has a security policy on it that takes fifteen minutes for the kid to log in, and then they run slower than hell. Quite a waste of money. They'd do better to have them at the board and in their notes more. It's a STEM school though, so those things are out of the question, reserved for high schools that cater to children who haven't started their high-tech career at age 14.

             S.

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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Sagrilarus wrote:
(a comment taken out of a much larder response I'm sure)
It was, we went over the larger quote a couple weeks ago when it first broke. I think it was buried in another thread so it isn't easy to find and I don't blame the OP for not seeing it.
 
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TheChin! wrote:
A bad candidate comes right out and says "Chemical Engineers are just wannabe Chemists without the patience for experiment studies", without any evidence.


Err, my experience suggests said statement is largely valid.

Quote:
You know, just by saying that vaccines are so important and necessary she is helping to push her constituents to a more informed position.


Really? I'd thing that helping her constituents to a more informed position would be saying something more like: "You modern-day typhoid Marys should vaccinate your kids yesterday. By the way, the rate of celiac disease is less than 1% of the population, so most of you are throwing your money away on overpriced gluten-free products".

Come one, Chin. She threw in Monsanto when queried on vaccines (Monsanto don't make vaccines), threw out an old trope on thimerosol, despite the fact thimerosol hasn't been used in childhood vaccines for 15 years. She says the EU and Japan have a better, but the European Medicines Agency has stated thimerosol is safe. So why throw out a word salad on mercury in vaccines when the EMA, that Stein herself says she believes is more trustworthy than the FDA or CDC, says it's safe?

She implied we couldn't trust the vaccine approval process because of corporate influence, despite pharma having no votes on the 17-member board for vaccine approvals. She complained that the CDC was too influenced by corporations, despite the CDC having no role in vaccine approval. Not only that, but most EU countries have at least one more childhood vaccine on their schedule (e.g. BCG vaccine against TB, which the CDC does not recommend) than does the US.

She hinted at wifi and brain injury (despite brain cancer rates remaining static over 30 years).

For a Harvard trained physician, it's a disgraceful mealy-mouthed pandering to woo in general and antivaxxers in particular.

She's your purity unicorn, but sometimes unicorns are jerks.
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tmcvey wrote:

Really? I'd thing that helping her constituents to a more informed position would be saying something more like: "You modern-day typhoid Marys should vaccinate your kids yesterday". By the way, the rate of celiac disease is less than 1% of the population, so most of your are throwing your money away on overpriced gluten-free products.


    I'm concluding you're not in a job where they let you talk to customers.

    By the way I'm very close to someone who works at the FDA (in an approval role) and if she is to be believed corporations not only have tremendous power there, but are notorious for being duplicitous with their data submissions.

             S.


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tmcvey wrote:

Come one, Chin. She threw in Monsanto when queried on vaccines (Monsanto don't make vaccines), threw out an old trope on thimerosol, despite the fact thimerosol hasn't been used in childhood vaccines for 15 years. She says the EU and Japan have a better, but the European Medicines Agency has stated thimerosol is safe. So why throw out a word salad on mercury in vaccines when the EMA, that Stein herself says she believes is more trustworthy than the FDA or CDC, says it's safe?

She implied we couldn't trust the vaccine approval process because of corporate influence, despite pharma having no votes on the 17-member board for vaccine approvals. She complained that the CDC was too influenced by corporations, despite the CDC having no role in vaccine approval.

She hinted at wifi and brain injury (despite brain cancer rates remaining static over 30 years).
You are mashing together different points she made.
Monsanto: She mentioned them in the context of regulatory bodies being under unsafe influence. She said "food safety".
CDC: You don't think CDC data is used to make vaccine decisions? If the CDC decides it does or does not have the funding to research something that can have a direct bearing on decisions for initial shots and the number of boosters (the schedule).
EMA: She said they had a "better' in the context of wifi guidelines. She didn't say they were better at everything.
FDA approval: If you are talking about the VRBPAC. Those 17 people don't operate in a vacuum. In fact they aren't part of the FDA at all. They aren't even mandatory for approval, they are an advisory panel. Now granted, the FDA isn't quite as loaded with ex and future Corporate people as the corrupt atrocity, the USDA, but to claim that it has no corporate influence is pretty naive.

The moral of the story is, a central plank in the Green platform is to build a wall between public and private interests so that there is the least amount of suspicion of impropriety. She/they rail about it in all aspects of government, finance, environment, elections and yes, medical. To ignore that context and to further take apart her statements as if they weren't coming from that context is self-serving. Yes, anti-vaxxers are off the rails, but stating things like this:
Quote:
You modern-day typhoid Marys should vaccinate your kids yesterday". By the way, the rate of celiac disease is less than 1% of the population, so most of your are throwing your money away on overpriced gluten-free products.
does not change their minds or fix their misconceptions. Only rebuilding the trust in the regulatory bodies will enable people to believe what those bodies claim on a consistent basis.

In your link, there is a comment from Clinton in 2008 that is a classic example of pandering on this very subject and she has flip-flopped on it based on who she is talking to. To swing back to the OP, does Clinton sound like a reasonable alternative to Clinton?
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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tmcvey wrote:
She's your purity unicorn, but sometimes unicorns are jerks.
This is kind of ironic isn't it? Isn't she being taken to task because she refuses to ignore any chances that the process for vaccine approval and prescribing is suspect and make a purity oath that all vaccines are 100% safe, properly tested and used? It's like the pro-vaxxers have taken the opposite extreme position. "If you aren't for them, you are against them!"
 
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Sagrilarus wrote:
tmcvey wrote:

Really? I'd thing that helping her constituents to a more informed position would be saying something more like: "You modern-day typhoid Marys should vaccinate your kids yesterday". By the way, the rate of celiac disease is less than 1% of the population, so most of your are throwing your money away on overpriced gluten-free products.


    I'm concluding you're not in a job where they let you talk to customers.

    By the way I'm very close to someone who works at the FDA (in an approval role) and if she is to be believed corporations not only have tremendous power there, but are notorious for being duplicitous with their data submissions.

             S.




if you questions vaccines or GMOs you are an anti-vax/GMo nut to the people in here.

I used to work in the environmental field and did a lot of hazardous waste removal at pharmaceutical companies. I remember going to glax-smithkline all the time and incarnating old vaccines as haz-mat, giving it mercury waste codes. I used to question it because it can't go in the ground but it can go in the body? Always seemed odd to me but if I questioned anything I was the nut. Zkeep in mind I still vacinated my kids, I just asked some questions. A couple of years later Thimiserol (the mercury compound in vaccines) is removed from most vaccines. Hmmm.

You can't question the hive mind!

Plus, the green party is not the fucking democrat party. They are going to have differences of opinion.
 
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TheChin! wrote:
tmcvey wrote:
She's your purity unicorn, but sometimes unicorns are jerks.
This is kind of ironic isn't it? Isn't she being taken to task because she refuses to ignore any chances that the process for vaccine approval and prescribing is suspect and make a purity oath that all vaccines are 100% safe, properly tested and used? It's like the pro-vaxxers have taken the opposite extreme position. "If you aren't for them, you are against them!"


Loyalty seems to continuously lead you astray here Chin.
 
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windsagio wrote:
Loyalty seems to continuously lead you astray here Chin.
I don't see it, I see it with the Hillary Democrats. They are willing to avert their eyes to all kinds of things in order to get their "settle for" candidate in the White House. Then they have the audacity to judge Stein because a few comments betrays that she doesn't worship at the altar of the Bureaucracy. At least Stein is consistent and her positions defensible.

Hey, if you like the rich and powerful running the government with their bank accounts as the primary concern and you coming in secondary at best, then go right ahead and drum up weak to ridiculous criticisms to protect your Wall Street election. I'm not going to buy it because I can read and I can recognize desperate mud slinging when I read it.

The thing is, the Dems don't have to be so desperate, they have this in the bag if they just play Trump correctly. They are so worried about Bernie votes they are making themselves look foolish.
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Sagrilarus wrote:
By the way I'm very close to someone who works at the FDA (in an approval role) and if she is to be believed corporations not only have tremendous power there, but are notorious for being duplicitous with their data submissions.


I have friends who worked in pharma CROs designing clinical trials, and I've read Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma and Bad Science.

Can I suggest that trying to figure out how a pharma corporation games a clinical trial of a few dozen volunteers by tweaking the ADME pharmacology to avoid the side-effects showing in the trial period, or by telling their CRO to tweak change the metrics in the trial, or making the trial shorter/longer/larger/sliced differently) on less than a hundred subjects to squeeze out statistically significant efficacy, or bury an inconclusive study to bias future metastudies, is a bit different than doubting the conclusions from, e.g. cohort studies with 1.2 million kids in them showing no linkage of MMR vaccine and autism or thimerosol and autism.

Despite what TheChin thinks, the lack of a connection between thimerosol and autism is Settled Science. We f**king studies have been done and the results are in. Wakefield's 1998 study implying an MMR vaccine/autism link was fraudulent, he got disbarred by the BMA, and the other authors on that paper retracted. Stein dogwhistling the anti-vaxxers continued belief in a thimerosol/MMR linkage that resulted from Wakefield's fraud is appalling for a layperson but worse for an MD.
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TheChin! wrote:
In your link, there is a comment from Clinton in 2008 that is a classic example of pandering on this very subject and she has flip-flopped on it based on who she is talking to.


You might want to consult on when the Lancet retracted the Wakefield paper alleging an MMR/autism link.
 
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tmcvey wrote:
Despite what TheChin thinks, the lack of a connection between thimerosol and autism is Settled Science.
Don't get confused, I don't think anything of the sort. I think that our system is compromised, Stein thinks our system is compromised.

tmcvey wrote:
We f**king studies have been done and the results are in. Wakefield's 1998 study implying an MMR vaccine/autism link was fraudulent, he got disbarred by the BMA, and the other authors on that paper retracted. Stein dogwhistling the anti-vaxxers continued belief in a thimerosol/MMR linkage that resulted from Wakefield's fraud is appalling for a layperson but worse for an MD.
Again, if you read what she said, she said that the vaccination schedule was in question and mercury was in question and some of it was settled (obviously mercury) and some of it wasn't. I have been unable to find anywhere that she claims Thimerosol/MMR causes autism. Maybe you can enlighten me without spinning a statement about the larger issue of compromised oversight.
 
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tmcvey wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
In your link, there is a comment from Clinton in 2008 that is a classic example of pandering on this very subject and she has flip-flopped on it based on who she is talking to.


You might want to consult on when the Lancet retracted the Wakefield paper alleging an MMR/autism link.

Unfortunately, Hillary is a devotee of Dr. Mark Hyman, who is a bit of a woo-meister himself.
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