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Evolution» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fat tissue / cooperative scavenger carnivore rss

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Pierre Beri
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If one of your species is still hungry, do you have to finish feeding it before you start to fill another species’ fat tissue?

*************

If you have a cooperative scavenger carnivore, does cooperation work twice – once from hunting and once from scavenging?
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Ben Bateson
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beri2 wrote:
If one of your species is still hungry, do you have to finish feeding it before you start to fill another species’ fat tissue?

*************

If you have a cooperative scavenger carnivore, does cooperation work twice – once from hunting and once from scavenging?


1) Yes, definitely.

2) I don't have the cards in front of me, but doesn't cooperative work with an adjacent species? Therefore, cooperative wouldn't activate at all in this case. Also, Scavenger will only work when a different species feeds
.

Edit: Ignore all this. I shouldn't try to answer rules queries without the game in front of me
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Eric Bettan
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1. I thought you could feed whichever species you want. Fat tissue does not say "once all your species are fully fed".
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Trevor Schadt
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ousgg wrote:
beri2 wrote:
If one of your species is still hungry, do you have to finish feeding it before you start to fill another species’ fat tissue?

*************

If you have a cooperative scavenger carnivore, does cooperation work twice – once from hunting and once from scavenging?


1) Yes, definitely.

2) I don't have the cards in front of me, but doesn't cooperative work with an adjacent species? Therefore, cooperative wouldn't activate at all in this case. Also, Scavenger will only work when a different species feeds.
I believe you are wrong on both these counts. As Eric said above, Fat Tissue does not require that you have no other Hungry species before starting to put Food Tokens on the Fat Tissue card.

To the best of my knowledge, Scavenger activates whenever any Carnivore feeds, even the same species. So, if a Cooperating Carnivore Scavenger feeds, it receives N Meat Food from feeding, and the species to the right receives 1 Meat Food from Cooperation. Then it receives 1 Meat Food from being a Scavenger, and the species to the right receives another 1 Meat Food from Cooperation.
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Chris Currie
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The Fat Tissue question is actually a pretty good rules clarification request.

The rule book says this about the Feeding phase:
Rule Book, Page 7 wrote:

Beginning with the First Player and continuing clockwise, each player must feed one of their Hungry species. A species is Hungry if it has less food than its population.


In the Reference Section - Trait Cards, it says this about Fat Store:

Rule Book, Page 11 wrote:

This species may continue to place food on the Fat Tissue trait card once it has taken food equal to its Population.


In a previous reply from North Star's Jonathan D' Angelo, he says, "Carnivores with Fat Tissue who are full (but have not yet filled up their Fat Tissue) may choose to pass or eat each turn as well, even if that species had already passed during a previous feeding turn."

So, it seems the only real hangup on answering is that the rule book can be interpreted to read that you must always feed a Hungry species, not a species that "can still eat" (which is what Fat Tissue can be interpreted to do). I've done a bit of digging and I haven't seen a clarification.

For what it's worth, we've always treated Fat Tissue as giving a species two tiers of Hungry: the first is equal to population and must be met to avoid starvation, the second is equal to body size and is optional. Both tiers, though, allow the species to continue to eat at any time during the Feeding phase.

====

For the Cooperative Scavenging Carnivore, let's look at what each card gives the species.

Carnivore - Must eat meat, may never take Plant Food even from Cooperation
Scavenging - Take a food from the food bank when any species population is reduced due to carnivore action. This does trigger when the attacker is a Scavenging Carnivore.
Cooperation - Anytime this species eats, the species to the right of this species get one food from the same type and source (Plant/Meat, Watering Hole/Food Bank)

Your questions is:
beri2 wrote:

If you have a cooperative scavenger carnivore, does cooperation work twice – once from hunting and once from scavenging?


When your Cooperative Scavenging Carnivore eats one population from any species on the table the following happen:

1) Carnivore Action - The Prey species loses one population
1b) Carnivore Action - The Attacking Carnivore gains Meat Food from the Food Bank equal to the Prey species' Body Size
2) Cooperation Effect - The species to the right of the Attacking Carnivore gains one Meat Food from the Food Bank
3) Scavenger Effect - The Attacking Carnivore gains one Meat Food from the Food Bank
4) Cooperation Effect - The species to the right of the Attacking Carnivore gains one Meat Food from the Food Bank

So, yes, Cooperation triggers twice.

Caveat: If the Cooperative Scavenger isn't a Carnivore but the species to the right of the Cooperative Scavenger is a Carnivore, the right Carnivore species would only gain food from the Cooperation effect if the Food taken is Meat. Any Cooperation effect that passes Plant Food down a chain would stop at the Cooperative Carnivore.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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OFFICIAL RESPONSE:
Thanks for bringing up some of these ambiguities with regards to Fat Tissue. We'll need to look into a better way to write it in the rules. This is how we've been playing in the office for years, so this is as official as it gets for now (we might decide to change it later as we try to figure out the best way to solve this issue).

1) You can choose to feed a species with Fat Tissue even if they have food equal to their Population provided there is still have room available on the Fat Tissue card.

2) The Cooperation would trigger twice. Once from the attack and a second time from the Scavenger card.
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Kevin Jonas

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domcrap wrote:

1) You can choose to feed a species with Fat Tissue even if they have food equal to their Population provided there is still have room available on the Fat Tissue card.


So, if a carnivore has fat tissue and has food equal to population but nothing on fat tissue yet. It is that player's choice to keep attacking with the carnivore, assuming there are still valid targets, correct? That player can stop though. I assume that is fine. We had a situation yesterday where the only valid target was a species with horns and the carnivore owner did not want to attack that.

Another way to look at it, if a species is no longer hungry, i.e. by definition has food equal to population, one can no longer eat to fill fat tissue? That would mean only left overs within one feeding would go into fat tissue. Like if I had foraging, fat tissues, 3 food, 4 population, 3 body size and had one more feeding phase I would get two food due to foraging. One extra would go on fat tissue. But now that the species is no longer hungry can I still feed on my next turn?
 
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Byron S
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sirpoonga wrote:
domcrap wrote:

1) You can choose to feed a species with Fat Tissue even if they have food equal to their Population provided there is still have room available on the Fat Tissue card.


So, if a carnivore has fat tissue and has food equal to population but nothing on fat tissue yet. It is that player's choice to keep attacking with the carnivore, assuming there are still valid targets, correct? That player can stop though. I assume that is fine. We had a situation yesterday where the only valid target was a species with horns and the carnivore owner did not want to attack that.

Another way to look at it, if a species is no longer hungry, i.e. by definition has food equal to population, one can no longer eat to fill fat tissue? That would mean only left overs within one feeding would go into fat tissue. Like if I had foraging, fat tissues, 3 food, 4 population, 3 body size and had one more feeding phase I would get two food due to foraging. One extra would go on fat tissue. But now that the species is no longer hungry can I still feed on my next turn?

Fat Tissue adds another layer to the whole eating thing. If a creature has less food than population, it is Hungry and must eat, if possible. If a creature with Fat Tissue has food equal to its Population, it can choose to continue eating until it has food equal to Body Size on the Fat Tissue card. It is no longer required to eat, but always has the option to. It does not matter if it's a Carnivore or not.
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Kevin Jonas

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runtsta wrote:
sirpoonga wrote:
domcrap wrote:

1) You can choose to feed a species with Fat Tissue even if they have food equal to their Population provided there is still have room available on the Fat Tissue card.


So, if a carnivore has fat tissue and has food equal to population but nothing on fat tissue yet. It is that player's choice to keep attacking with the carnivore, assuming there are still valid targets, correct? That player can stop though. I assume that is fine. We had a situation yesterday where the only valid target was a species with horns and the carnivore owner did not want to attack that.

Another way to look at it, if a species is no longer hungry, i.e. by definition has food equal to population, one can no longer eat to fill fat tissue? That would mean only left overs within one feeding would go into fat tissue. Like if I had foraging, fat tissues, 3 food, 4 population, 3 body size and had one more feeding phase I would get two food due to foraging. One extra would go on fat tissue. But now that the species is no longer hungry can I still feed on my next turn?

Fat Tissue adds another layer to the whole eating thing. If a creature has less food than population, it is Hungry and must eat, if possible. If a creature with Fat Tissue has food equal to its Population, it can choose to continue eating until it has food equal to Body Size on the Fat Tissue card. It is no longer required to eat, but always has the option to. It does not matter if it's a Carnivore or not.


That makes sense. Also, because of fat tissues wording, the player may choose to not put extra food onto fat tissue, correct? It's an odd choice, why would one not want to bank points. But just curious then.
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Byron S
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sirpoonga wrote:
That makes sense. Also, because of fat tissues wording, the player may choose to not put extra food onto fat tissue, correct? It's an odd choice, why would one not want to bank points. But just curious then.
I think that if you were taking the feeding action to gain food, you'd have to put it on the Fat Tissue card. Otherwise, you'd run into abuse cases where you would keep attacking someone or depleting the Watering Hole with no end in sight.
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Jonathan D' Angelo
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sirpoonga wrote:
It's an odd choice, why would one not want to bank points. But just curious then.


The most likely reason is to leave one food in the watering hole to make sure Fertile triggers the next turn.
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Liz Burton
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runtsta wrote:
sirpoonga wrote:
That makes sense. Also, because of fat tissues wording, the player may choose to not put extra food onto fat tissue, correct? It's an odd choice, why would one not want to bank points. But just curious then.
I think that if you were taking the feeding action to gain food, you'd have to put it on the Fat Tissue card. Otherwise, you'd run into abuse cases where you would keep attacking someone or depleting the Watering Hole with no end in sight.


I think he meant, "Why stop putting food on Fat Tissue?" (One answer: To trigger Fertile next round, as mentioned above.) I don't think he meant to imply you could keep feeding and put food directly into your bag.
 
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Byron S
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manutd03 wrote:
runtsta wrote:
sirpoonga wrote:
That makes sense. Also, because of fat tissues wording, the player may choose to not put extra food onto fat tissue, correct? It's an odd choice, why would one not want to bank points. But just curious then.
I think that if you were taking the feeding action to gain food, you'd have to put it on the Fat Tissue card. Otherwise, you'd run into abuse cases where you would keep attacking someone or depleting the Watering Hole with no end in sight.

I think he meant, "Why stop putting food on Fat Tissue?" (One answer: To trigger Fertile next round, as mentioned above.) I don't think he meant to imply you could keep feeding and put food directly into your bag.

I was reading it more as take the feeding action, but don't take the food at all.
 
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Kevin Jonas

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NorthStar wrote:
sirpoonga wrote:
It's an odd choice, why would one not want to bank points. But just curious then.


The most likely reason is to leave one food in the watering hole to make sure Fertile triggers the next turn.


Ahhh, yeah, that's right.
 
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Pierre Beri
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Zwaloo wrote:
Scavenging - Take a food from the food bank when any species population is reduced due to carnivore action.
Do you mean Scavenger triggers even when Last stand is played and the prey loses no population?

domcrap wrote:
OFFICIAL RESPONSE:

1) You can choose to feed a species with Fat Tissue even if they have food equal to their Population provided there is still have room available on the Fat Tissue card.
And even if you have other really hungry species?
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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beri2 wrote:
domcrap wrote:
OFFICIAL RESPONSE:

1) You can choose to feed a species with Fat Tissue even if they have food equal to their Population provided there is still have room available on the Fat Tissue card.
And even if you have other really hungry species?


Yes. Even if you have other really really hungry species. For feeding purposes, treat a species with Fat Tissue as if it had a larger Population equal to (Pop + Body Size). But for starvation purposes, it only loses the Population(s) that did not get food.
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