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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Observation about the game ending early. rss

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Jonathon Neff
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So I'm looking through the rules and noticed that it's a bit harder to eliminate players, having to go through their health almost twice and sanity twice. However, I also saw in the rules that if any one player is taken out of the game, everyone loses if they can't win the next turn. I hope that's not a statement on this game being too nice, because that seems like a harsh condition, especially when insanity can turn someone against the team as well. Seems ripe for the possibility for someone to tank the game if they're not going to win.

I suppose it could also stop situations that would leave someone very behind, struggling to catch up to the group. I don't know, any thoughts?

Quote:
When an investigator is eliminated, he drops all of his possessions
in his space and removes his investigator figure from the board. The
remaining investigators have a single additional investigator phase to
attempt to complete their investigation. At the end of that investigator
phase, if the investigators did not complete the investigation, they lose
the game. One of them selects the “Investigator Eliminated” option
from the in-game menu to end the game
 
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Scott Cantor
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It's not atypical for full co-ops because nobody wants to sit there for 2 hours waiting on the game to finish. True player elimiination is fairly rare in co-ops, and this basically forces the game to completion while still providing people a shot at winning.

I suspect it might be possible to house rule something there, because if I interpreted the rulebook correctly, it seemed to say that you tell the app when somebody dies *after* the extra investigator phase when the game actually fully ends. Meaning, I guess, that the game doesn't end if you don't tell the app about it.
 
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Justin Colm
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More Mellotron wrote:
Meaning, I guess, that the game doesn't end if you don't tell the app about it.


Very good point. With that little loophole it seems like players should be able to waive that rule and have player elimination if they chose.
 
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Chris J Davis
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High Flying Bird wrote:
More Mellotron wrote:
Meaning, I guess, that the game doesn't end if you don't tell the app about it.


Very good point. With that little loophole it seems like players should be able to waive that rule and have player elimination if they chose.


Of course, without that rule, the game becomes a LOT easier.
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Scott Cantor
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bleached_lizard wrote:

Of course, without that rule, the game becomes a LOT easier.


There's a middle ground though. You could allow for more than one turn, but still limit it, or you could come up with some heuristic based on the scenario that might dictate how many turns you get. Maybe there's something related to the scenario that can be counted and based on the number on the map, you get N turns or something along those lines.

It's nice that they seem to have left some opening for that despite the app regulating the game.
 
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Michael Logan
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More Mellotron wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:

Of course, without that rule, the game becomes a LOT easier.


There's a middle ground though. You could allow for more than one turn, but still limit it, or you could come up with some heuristic based on the scenario that might dictate how many turns you get. Maybe there's something related to the scenario that can be counted and based on the number on the map, you get N turns or something along those lines.

It's nice that they seem to have left some opening for that despite the app regulating the game.


But all of these things would still make it easier. How much easier is all you would be adjusting.

If you want to play allow the game to continue after death, you should also do something to make it easier to die.
 
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Chris J Davis
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More Mellotron wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:

Of course, without that rule, the game becomes a LOT easier.


There's a middle ground though. You could allow for more than one turn, but still limit it, or you could come up with some heuristic based on the scenario that might dictate how many turns you get. Maybe there's something related to the scenario that can be counted and based on the number on the map, you get N turns or something along those lines.

It's nice that they seem to have left some opening for that despite the app regulating the game.


The easiest option would be to have the number of extra turns be equal to the difficulty of the scenario (the number of elder sign icons shown on the scenario's intro screen).
 
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Chris J Davis
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mfl134 wrote:
More Mellotron wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:

Of course, without that rule, the game becomes a LOT easier.


There's a middle ground though. You could allow for more than one turn, but still limit it, or you could come up with some heuristic based on the scenario that might dictate how many turns you get. Maybe there's something related to the scenario that can be counted and based on the number on the map, you get N turns or something along those lines.

It's nice that they seem to have left some opening for that despite the app regulating the game.


But all of these things would still make it easier. How much easier is all you would be adjusting.

If you want to play allow the game to continue after death, you should also do something to make it easier to die.


I think he's saying that he doesn't mind it being easier. It's a co-op game, so it's easy enough for different play groups to adjust the difficulty to their taste.
 
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soak man
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I love this rule. It makes the game more difficult and require real teamwork. You can't just leave your friend behind to die if things get tough. You have to go back and help, which makes it tactically important who goes with who and how or IF you decide to split up while exploring.

I think it's going to make for some tense games because you know that you're only as strong as your weakest link.

I have a feeling Vince and Carolyn from 1E are going to see a lot of play.

Besides, I can already see topic about "only 4 scenarios!!!?" so the fact that you aren't guaranteed to get through the entire game on your first try should be a blessing so long as you're having fun. It sounds like a great feature of the game to me and not a problem. True teamwork is one of the core things I find missing in some of the other sprawling Lovecraft games. They tend to feel more like everyone has their own goals that just somehow line up and that they barely have to look after each other.
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Justin Colm
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bleached_lizard wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
More Mellotron wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:

Of course, without that rule, the game becomes a LOT easier.


There's a middle ground though. You could allow for more than one turn, but still limit it, or you could come up with some heuristic based on the scenario that might dictate how many turns you get. Maybe there's something related to the scenario that can be counted and based on the number on the map, you get N turns or something along those lines.

It's nice that they seem to have left some opening for that despite the app regulating the game.


But all of these things would still make it easier. How much easier is all you would be adjusting.

If you want to play allow the game to continue after death, you should also do something to make it easier to die.


I think he's saying that he doesn't mind it being easier. It's a co-op game, so it's easy enough for different play groups to adjust the difficulty to their taste.


EXACTLY. It's all about a group being able to have fun playing in their preferred way and any looseness in the app's game governance that facillitates that is a good thing.
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Justin Colm
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soakman wrote:
I love this rule. It makes the game more difficult and require real teamwork. You can't just leave your friend behind to die if things get tough.


Devil's Advocate question: isn't that unthematic though? What does his life matter compared to the fate of the world? Do I go back to drag him out of fire or from the clutches of the Hunting Horror or do I keep running for that door with the precious artifact that will prevent nightmarish horrors from being unleashed on the world? The game says: if I can make it to that door in one turn I keep running... otherwise I have to go back. Thematically why would I ever go back? The world is more important.

Non devil's advocate: I agree with you that this seems an important rule tactically speaking.
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Chris J Davis
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High Flying Bird wrote:
soakman wrote:
I love this rule. It makes the game more difficult and require real teamwork. You can't just leave your friend behind to die if things get tough.


Devil's Advocate question: isn't that unthematic though? What does his life matter compared to the fate of the world? Do I go back to drag him out of fire or from the clutches of the Hunting Horror or do I keep running for that door with the precious artifact that will prevent nightmarish horrors from being unleashed on the world? The game says: if I can make it to that door in one turn I keep running... otherwise I have to go back. Thematically why would I ever go back? The world is more important.


Fire up the app, start a scenario and hit the "Investigator Eliminated" button to find out!
 
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bleached_lizard wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
soakman wrote:
I love this rule. It makes the game more difficult and require real teamwork. You can't just leave your friend behind to die if things get tough.


Devil's Advocate question: isn't that unthematic though? What does his life matter compared to the fate of the world? Do I go back to drag him out of fire or from the clutches of the Hunting Horror or do I keep running for that door with the precious artifact that will prevent nightmarish horrors from being unleashed on the world? The game says: if I can make it to that door in one turn I keep running... otherwise I have to go back. Thematically why would I ever go back? The world is more important.


Fire up the app, start a scenario and hit the "Investigator Eliminated" button to find out!


Hmm... I don't want to spoil it... but i;m tempted.
 
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Dean Love
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It fixes 1E, where badly injured investigators would then race to get killed before the objective was revealed, so they could come back as someone else healthy in the finale.
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Scott Cantor
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High Flying Bird wrote:
mfl134 wrote:

I think he's saying that he doesn't mind it being easier. It's a co-op game, so it's easy enough for different play groups to adjust the difficulty to their taste.


EXACTLY. It's all about a group being able to have fun playing in their preferred way and any looseness in the app's game governance that facillitates that is a good thing.


Yes, that was my point. It's more referring to the fact that one risk with apps in boardgames is rigidity. When the app is in control, if it decides the game's over, you're pretty much done. Anything that loosens that up is good for the game IMHO, when you're talking about thematic co-ops.

(My biggest fear, actually, is a crash. Play for 4 hours and then the app crashes and you can't recover. First time that happens, the blowback will be enormous. I'm guessing they auto-save this thing aggressively.)
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Chris J Davis
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More Mellotron wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
mfl134 wrote:

I think he's saying that he doesn't mind it being easier. It's a co-op game, so it's easy enough for different play groups to adjust the difficulty to their taste.


EXACTLY. It's all about a group being able to have fun playing in their preferred way and any looseness in the app's game governance that facillitates that is a good thing.


Yes, that was my point. It's more referring to the fact that one risk with apps in boardgames is rigidity. When the app is in control, if it decides the game's over, you're pretty much done. Anything that loosens that up is good for the game IMHO, when you're talking about thematic co-ops.

(My biggest fear, actually, is a crash. Play for 4 hours and then the app crashes and you can't recover. First time that happens, the blowback will be enormous. I'm guessing they auto-save this thing aggressively.)


Yes, the app auto-saves at least once a round.
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Keith Hammons
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I love it. In addition to making each individual investigator more important, there are now consequences to death and madness when they were minor before. This is also more inventive than simply "you lose." If you lose an investigator to madness and were on the cusp of winning this could make it go down to the wire and is much more thematic - we were so close to winning, but X went mad and burned the house down moments before we could complete our objective. Or despite X going mad, we were able to prevail at the last moment just before the house collapsed in flames.

Of course if someone goes mad early on, it could get tedious, but then the investigators should have made better choices.

That said, my one concern is that while Descent: Road to Legend was like 40% app to physical, this seems like 80% app to physical. It could be the coolest solo game ever, but I'm wondering how it will play with 4 or 5.
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Mariano Rico
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bleached_lizard wrote:
More Mellotron wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
mfl134 wrote:

I think he's saying that he doesn't mind it being easier. It's a co-op game, so it's easy enough for different play groups to adjust the difficulty to their taste.


EXACTLY. It's all about a group being able to have fun playing in their preferred way and any looseness in the app's game governance that facillitates that is a good thing.


Yes, that was my point. It's more referring to the fact that one risk with apps in boardgames is rigidity. When the app is in control, if it decides the game's over, you're pretty much done. Anything that loosens that up is good for the game IMHO, when you're talking about thematic co-ops.

(My biggest fear, actually, is a crash. Play for 4 hours and then the app crashes and you can't recover. First time that happens, the blowback will be enormous. I'm guessing they auto-save this thing aggressively.)


Yes, the app auto-saves at least once a round.


Also worth to note that in Descent app crashes are very rare. An playing on Ipad mini first generation here.
 
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Scott Cantor
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magicbus1966 wrote:

That said, my one concern is that while Descent: Road to Legend was like 40% app to physical, this seems like 80% app to physical. It could be the coolest solo game ever, but I'm wondering how it will play with 4 or 5.


Same. My initial playing around with the app and reading the rules is making me a little concerned about the book-keeping and the back and forth with it. Not enough to stop my drooling until I get the game, but enough to be mildly concerned.

I haven't played with Descent's app either, so no basis for setting my expectations.

(Good to hear that app has been reliable/stable. Even with auto-saving, people using iPads know that it's easy to lose saved data in some games too. Probably a good argument for using Steam for this.)
 
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soak man
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High Flying Bird wrote:
soakman wrote:
I love this rule. It makes the game more difficult and require real teamwork. You can't just leave your friend behind to die if things get tough.


Devil's Advocate question: isn't that unthematic though? What does his life matter compared to the fate of the world? Do I go back to drag him out of fire or from the clutches of the Hunting Horror or do I keep running for that door with the precious artifact that will prevent nightmarish horrors from being unleashed on the world? The game says: if I can make it to that door in one turn I keep running... otherwise I have to go back. Thematically why would I ever go back? The world is more important.

Non devil's advocate: I agree with you that this seems an important rule tactically speaking.


I know others will see it differently, but I don't find it unthematic at all. I think stories like Lovecraft's can easily and often be about NOT losing your humanity during an attempt to save humanity. After all, what is the point of saving humanity if you can so easily disregard the value of a single person (who by the way is also risking everything).

I mean, perhaps Michael McGlenn would play it differently than, say, Sister Mary. But I don't find it unthematic, and the strategy involved trumps what little concerns I see.
 
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bleached_lizard wrote:
More Mellotron wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
mfl134 wrote:

I think he's saying that he doesn't mind it being easier. It's a co-op game, so it's easy enough for different play groups to adjust the difficulty to their taste.


EXACTLY. It's all about a group being able to have fun playing in their preferred way and any looseness in the app's game governance that facillitates that is a good thing.


Yes, that was my point. It's more referring to the fact that one risk with apps in boardgames is rigidity. When the app is in control, if it decides the game's over, you're pretty much done. Anything that loosens that up is good for the game IMHO, when you're talking about thematic co-ops.

(My biggest fear, actually, is a crash. Play for 4 hours and then the app crashes and you can't recover. First time that happens, the blowback will be enormous. I'm guessing they auto-save this thing aggressively.)


Yes, the app auto-saves at least once a round.


Additionally, I got the app frozen by some Windows problem and hat to shut it down via task manager. Upon restarting, I found the exact place where it crashed. Not so sure if I've been lucky, or what, but it was a pleasant discovery
 
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Michael Logan
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bleached_lizard wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
More Mellotron wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:

Of course, without that rule, the game becomes a LOT easier.


There's a middle ground though. You could allow for more than one turn, but still limit it, or you could come up with some heuristic based on the scenario that might dictate how many turns you get. Maybe there's something related to the scenario that can be counted and based on the number on the map, you get N turns or something along those lines.

It's nice that they seem to have left some opening for that despite the app regulating the game.


But all of these things would still make it easier. How much easier is all you would be adjusting.

If you want to play allow the game to continue after death, you should also do something to make it easier to die.


I think he's saying that he doesn't mind it being easier. It's a co-op game, so it's easy enough for different play groups to adjust the difficulty to their taste.


I'm of the opinion that coops should really avoid house rules especially ones that make the game easier, because at that point whats the point? But I agree not everyone sees it the same as me. I'm looking for a challenge and some are just looking for a fun activity. If you are in it for the experience and not the challenge, I suppose house ruling makes sense. I'd rather play it and keep failing rather than wear training wheels while learning.
 
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Michael Logan
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High Flying Bird wrote:
soakman wrote:
I love this rule. It makes the game more difficult and require real teamwork. You can't just leave your friend behind to die if things get tough.


Devil's Advocate question: isn't that unthematic though? What does his life matter compared to the fate of the world? Do I go back to drag him out of fire or from the clutches of the Hunting Horror or do I keep running for that door with the precious artifact that will prevent nightmarish horrors from being unleashed on the world? The game says: if I can make it to that door in one turn I keep running... otherwise I have to go back. Thematically why would I ever go back? The world is more important.

Non devil's advocate: I agree with you that this seems an important rule tactically speaking.


couldn't thematically the world gets consumed shortly after you lose an investigator?
 
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Good lord people - this is Call of Cthulhu! If you're not dying horribly or going barking mad half the time (or more) then you're really not doing it right. Anyone who knows CofC knows that once one investigator dies horribly, it's likely to create a domino effect of insanity, mania, and horrible death for everyone involved, so fleeing the scene en masse to fight another day after seeing your mate die an agonising, terrified death... is probably fair dos.
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