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Star Wars: Destiny» Forums » General

Subject: YAY for blind boosters! Really... rss

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Paul DeStefano
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There's often a dread surrounding collecty games. It is easy to understand why. They can get expensive. So can biking, skiing, cooking, gardening, playing non-collecty games and pretty much any hobby you become passionate about.

While you may spend $500 on a single CxG fairly easily, opponents may argue that you could have had 15 other brand new games for that price.

Well, what if I don't WANT 15 brand new games? What if I don't want to buy games that will hit the table one or three times and vanish? What if I don't want to skim games and move on to the next? What if I want to get overly engrossed in a single system?

And what if I simply don't like those other games as much as a CxG?

We often see GeekLists of $200 orders from CoolStuff or Miniature Market. There's also those who spend that $200 on a bunch of boosters for a single game. If the same amount of hours of entertainment are gained, is there really any difference? Some people want to concentrate all of their effort to a single activity, some want to spread. I would never pinpoint either philosophy as better.

The dollar/fun factor can easily be far greater for a collecty game than individual purchase. Certainly less time is spent learning rules and having the learning curve of a game tucked under your belt and more time spent in the meat of the game.

$3 for a booster isn't much. It can satisfy the need to walk out of a game store with something in hand. Choosing to get a booster or two for a game you KNOW you enjoy or trying to save money for a big boxed game which you THINK you might enjoy is a rough choice.

Let's face it, collecty games survive by selling you the identical product you bought last week. Its a freaky business model, but its fun. After all, people play the lottery, too.

There's also the Christmas feeling of opening a booster, wondering what cool rare might lurk within. While this kind of almost happens with a new game, you usually know whats in the box. The blind booster is the mystery. Mystery is exciting.

Some people have addictive personalities. OK, if you can't afford food and go buy boosters for the latest CxG, there's a problem.

Generally, when trying a new CxG, I follow the setup of 2 starters and 4 boosters as an initial purchase. This usually lands you in the realm of a new boardgame pricewise, and lets you get a flavor of whether or not you next trip to the shop is a different game or 8 more boosters. Or 1 if you pass a comic shop and they happen to carry the latest whatever you're into. Maybe Target and WalMart will carry the Star Wars license. Adding a booster might just add a new twist or two to make you break out a game you hadn't played in a while, which you will know you enjoy, and at a minimal additional expense.

Blind boosters add a bit of gambing, but they also add a few metagame elements like trading and hunting for the rare you need to perfect your latest strategy. That hunting is in itself a part of the hobby many people enjoy. Like painting miniatures. Some love it, some hate it.

The Metagame of deckbuilding/armybuilding/stackbuilding/whateverbuilding can exist in non-collecty games, but there's something about acquiring a new card and basing your deck around it against a usual opponent who is not aware that you snuck out and got that new card which is a whole new layer of fun.

Does it suck that many of these games work so that he who has the most expendable cash wins? Hell, yes, it sucks. There are several solutions: Make sure each player has the same budget. Or share the component pool. Or resign yourself to the fact that this is your hobby and hobbies can be costly. I've never gotten into the tournament scene, but that life hobby also seems viable to those who simply admit it costs money to do well. I can think of very few hobbies that don't require greater investments as one gets more involved. You just have to find your comfort level.

I have cases full of various collecty dice, figures and cards. Like many games in my collection, I don't know if I'll play them again in the future or if circumstance just leaves them unplayed. But the constant freshness of a game system that has proven itself to me and the fun of the product hunt and the metagame of (possibly secret) deckbuilding will always keep me exploring the next big collecty.

Some people will hate the collecties, knowing they simply can't spend the cash to compete with the best, or that they are completionists and MUST have every component. Its just like deciding on any other boardgame. Know yourself, your likes and your self control.

And enjoy.

Or not.
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Geosphere wrote:
What if I don't want to buy games that will hit the table one or three times and vanish? What if I don't want to skim games and move on to the next? What if I want to get overly engrossed in a single system?


That's an interesting point that I hadn't considered. I'm often looking at my collection and thinking I need to explore games more instead of moving onto the next on my list.
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Mike Runnestrand
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As a Magic player, I'm really looking forward to this game as well.

Coming from a company with a loyal LCG playerbase, I get why there is a lot of negative feedback going around. But once the game launches, if it's any good, the complaints about this being a collectible game will dissipate. Who wants to sit around a message board for a game you don't play to let everyone know how much you don't like it?

Yeah, it will cost more money to be competitive at the highest level, but is that the only way you can enjoy a game? If so, stick with LCGs, and forget this game even exists.
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Zach Apps
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The CCG model is without a doubt a greedy business model that shows no concern for its customers, but FFG has been known to be greedy. (The way they package X-Wing upgrade cards can easily prove that)

If you truly want to create a collectible game that is also accessible for players at all levels, (income included) then the best solution, if they cared about players, would be to make all character cards/dice commons. Then, if you wanted something that could boost sales, make the rares or super rares holos or foils or something like that. That way, everyone can compete at the same level without just having more money, but the avid collectors that want to chase a complete foil collection can still spend the money to do so...
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William Aull
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What I like about my $50 board game is that I spend $50, sit down and all my friends and family can play with me for the initial price I paid.

My friends and family are less inclined to drop $50 each to continue to 'keep up with the Joneses' in some sort of CCG.
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Bernd Caspers
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Geosphere wrote:
Does it suck that many of these games work so that he who has the most expendable cash wins? Hell, yes, it sucks. There are several solutions: Make sure each player has the same budget. Or share the component pool.


That's the good thing, when only one player owns the game, he can provide all sides, so the players have the same options for building with a given side.

This is how I play my collectible games with a friend and there has never been a balance issue, since my collection turns out quite evenly matched.
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Geosphere wrote:

Does it suck that many of these games work so that he who has the most expendable cash wins? Hell, yes, it sucks. There are several solutions: Make sure each player has the same budget. Or share the component pool. Or resign yourself to the fact that this is your hobby and hobbies can be costly.


Or release your game as an LCG.

That's what's really angering people - FFG had a solution to this issue, and they're going to the "greedier" model. This soon after they were purchased by ANA and started jacking up prices on their games. And then, the greater ANA family is drastically increasing the prices of games they're releasing. It's a pattern going in the wrong direction, all following the buyout of about 50% of the hobby by a VC firm. It's a dangerous direction for the hobby overall.
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JoeyNine
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runnestrand wrote:
Who wants to sit around a message board for a game you don't play to let everyone know how much you don't like it?


Hi, you must be new around here. Just go to this link.
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Paul DeStefano
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Idaho11 wrote:
Or release your game as an LCG.

.....

It's a dangerous direction for the hobby overall.


I'm guessing you missed most of my post.

I would much rather this be collectible than LCG.

I avoid LCGs - I can't keep up with the releases. I tried with Netrunner. Couldn't do it, and with releases favoring certain factions you kind of needed to get them all. If it's collectible, I just get a smattering of each release, and I'm more comfortable with that model.

Greed or not - this is the way I want some of my games.

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Geosphere wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
Or release your game as an LCG.

.....

It's a dangerous direction for the hobby overall.


I'm guessing you missed most of my post.

I would much rather this be collectible than LCG.


I didn't miss it. I was rebutting it.

I have no issue with you preferring some games to be collectible. I buy Magic cards, dabbled in MDM, and, despite having reservations about the format, will still participate in it.

But FFG is going from one format to another, and the evidence is that they're not doing it because they think it's best for the hobby. They're doing it because they have been purchased by a VC firm that's not only bought up companies that produce almost half of the top 250 games at BGG, but are implementing changes that are hurting consumers.

This one may not be one that affects you negatively - in fact, it seems like it's helping you. But it's not the only change, and I'd wager that some of them will eventually hurt the hobby as a whole. I'd actually say that's already happening.
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My dread on CCGs is more that many cards/dice (i.e., most common) tend to be useless whereas the rare ones are much more powerful. This is very close to power creep and in general game unbalance.

Another issue is (as said by FFG when they moved to LCGs) is that you can have more frequent small sized expansions rather than one big expansion say, per year.

Of course, we have to see more info before judging, but for now I am at worried level.
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Sheldon Turner
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I'm really excited for this too. I was never into Magic or Pokemon when they came out 20 years ago because I was a kid and my parents didn't have that kind of money. Now I have a good income and my own kid to play with and this looks awesome. Plus, I can buy a booster at Walmart or Target when I'm picking up groceries. I'll be able to find players of all ages in most locations, not just at the FLGS. I'll be a very casual player, I can't see myself purchasing cards individually, but I'm really into the booster idea.

Also, I own most of FFGs other Star Wars games: X-wing, Armada, Imperial Assault, Rebellion, etc., and the art quality and balance is top notch.
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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I am super excited for this game. I just really hope it picks up steam in my area though. Most games played are established TCGs so if this can break that mold I'd be really happy.

It also seems, and this is speculation, that purple rarity is super rare and gold rarity is normal rare. Which is interesting because sources say that the die in the booster pack relates to the rare or super rare card you pull. So thank God the dice aren't random with the cards. However that would mean , and once again pure speculation here, that Luke Skywalker and the Falcon are super rare cards. Which makes sense because their effects are straight up bonkers.



[IMG][/IMG]

Comments? Thoughts? I'd love to talk about this game while we wait for GenCon information.
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Paul DeStefano
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Starsplice wrote:
Which makes sense because their effects are straight up bonkers.


Without knowing all the rules, there's really no way to tell just how powerful those effects are.
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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Geosphere wrote:
Starsplice wrote:
Which makes sense because their effects are straight up bonkers.


Without knowing all the rules, there's really no way to tell just how powerful those effects are.


This is true, however, unless this game penalizes you for drawing cards or playing cards for 1 die symbol instead of the full cost. I can say that those effects are VERY strong. Drawing more cards than an opponent is always a good things, and reanimation effects at a discount are also extremely good.
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Bernd Caspers
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Nushura wrote:
My dread on CCGs is more that many cards/dice (i.e., most common) tend to be useless whereas the rare ones are much more powerful. This is very close to power creep and in general game unbalance.


Power creep is present in all expandable games, wether they are collectible or not has nothig to do with it.
In X-Wing for example, I own Wave 1 and 2 and I know, that if I would play against someone owning the later waves I would have my ass handed to me every single time we play.
The pressure to buy newer stuff to stay competetive is present in every kind of expandable game, wether it's a CCG or LCG or calls itself something else.
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I feel like the power creep will be based on how many cards are in a playset. We know you cannot have more than 1 unique character on the field, but we don't know how many copies of a card can go into a deck. So its a pure guess that you can only have 1 of a character on your field when you start the game. So power creep for heroes shouldn't.......be too bad we hope. Which means trading multiple copies of a hero for other heroes would be viable. However we don't know how many copies of a card in the 30 card deck you can have, meaning power creep could very well be focused on cards for the 30 card deck over heroes. Realistically we don't have enough information to determine whats going to happen. I especially hope the secondary market doesn't just go crazy with $50 legendary rare cards. That would ruin the game for me. Especially if a playset is the traditional 3-4 cards.

Dice masters had this problem with Super Rare Green Goblin and Black Widow. 2 cards/dice you HAD to have to win any tournament scene. And that pushed their prices into levels that made the game unfun. I was lucky enough to pull both but i just didn't play them because no one (including me) had fun playing against decks using those cards. So I hope FFG has either enough variety or a fair balance of effects/dice that no individual card just becomes the most powerful thing you MUST have to win games.
 
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Mike Runnestrand
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Starsplice wrote:
how many cards are in a playset.


With a 30 card deck, I doubt it will be 4 cards. 3 seems likely, though I'd love it to be 2. It would make this game much easier on the wallet.
 
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The Jakster wrote:

Power creep is present in all expandable games, wether they are collectible or not has nothig to do with it.
In X-Wing for example, [...]


I cannot talk about x-wing since I barely know about it...but I can tell you about netrunner. In this game the core set cards are still the most powerful ones. If you look around there are several regionals that have been won with cards that are 2 or more years old. The pool expands but it only brings diverse strategies.

Indeed the falcon seems expensive...but it costs 5 focus (I guess to play on table?). I have no idea but in order to get those resources you need so much that it is a win more card?

The same for Luke...we do not know about how champions are bought...but he has the highest numbers among the spoiled characters.

I really hope that tournament winning decks are not made out of ultra rare cards only.
 
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Mike Runnestrand
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Max of 2 of any card in your deck: confirmed. So while this game is "collectible" it's not going to be too hard to get a playset of everything. Unless "Legendary" rares are 2 per box....
 
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Nushura wrote:

The same for Luke...we do not know about how champions are bought...but he has the highest numbers among the spoiled characters.

I really hope that tournament winning decks are not made out of ultra rare cards only.


Take a look at this page and click on "Read more". You'll see they explain the dice icons and the cards. We know the number in the bottom left is "points values". We also know you start with your heroes in play. We just don't know how many points you have to start with, I would wager roughly 25-30.

So Luke costs 15/20 which is considerably more than any other character we've seen. He has a crazy dice and an ability that draws you one card a turn, more if some cards can untap heroes. It's powerful, altough having played a lot of hearthstone which also has 30 cards per deck, draw effects are a bit weaker than what in other games like MTG because in the control match up you often get to draw your whole deck anyways.

So there's hope they balance powerful legendary characters with a high enough point cost. Characters and permanents with a dice are all rare or legendaries anyways, it's not like they can even create stricly better than common characters since there won't be common characters, unless they create characters without a dice.
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Craig Millett
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Starsplice wrote:
It also seems, and this is speculation, that purple rarity is super rare and gold rarity is normal rare.


It's Grey = Starter, Blue = Common, Yellow = Uncommon, Green = Rare, Purple = Legendary.

Firgus wrote:
We also know you start with your heroes in play. We just don't know how many points you have to start with, I would wager roughly 25-30.

30 has been confirmed.
 
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I think expandable/constructed games like LCGs and CCGs exist on a sort of horseshoe that goes from casual on one end to extremely competitive on the other.

LCGs exist in the middle of the horseshoe. If you're casually competitive, you'll like the fact that you can more or less keep up with the game for much cheaper than being competitive at a CCG.

CCGs exist on either extreme. Extreme competitive players will prefer the larger variety and less opportunity for a stale meta than in LCGs. They won't mind the higher cost.

Casual players, like me, like collectible because if they know they can't get it all, they won't feel like they're missing something nearly as much. They can buy a booster here and there, have some "Christmas morning" fun opening them, and probably get a bit of play out of whatever's in the pack, regardless if it's top-tier.
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mark van der werf
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Both models have their merits I think.

LCG is cheaper if you want to play the competitive scene but the artificial cashgrabs by letting some key cards appear only once in a pack when you need 3 of them for example are still stupid. For constructed formats preferred though.

CCG does have that fun of opening packs though. And if rarities aren't deviating too much or the strong cards aren't neccesarily rare types it doesn't have to be all that expensive. But usually that isn't the case of course. Drafting is something great that is only possible with CCG though and the most fun games like these can have I think.

All in all collectible card games are not my thing anymore but i can see merits in both systems. A CCG that just isn't too expensive, no need for silly rare lands for example, would be the best format I think if the game has good drafting. If drafting is not a thing anyway I'd prefer LCG.
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runnestrand wrote:
Max of 2 of any card in your deck: confirmed. So while this game is "collectible" it's not going to be too hard to get a playset of everything. Unless "Legendary" rares are 2 per box....


Apparently they are 1 per 6 packs, so that would make it 6 per box (36 packs per box.)

And there are 17 Legendary cards.

So you would need to buy three boxes, on average, to get one of everything, without trading, if you are lucky. That would run you $260 on Cool Stuff Inc, and that's with a 20 percent discount.

It's just too damn much.

And some of them you can use two dice - so that would be even more to collect.

I have spent a lot of money on Dice Masters - I buy about 40 booster packs and pick up the missing commons and rares from CSI - but I feel like this game is greedier. Maybe not. But I certainly will not be a completionist - I'm not Bill Gates.
 
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