$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 117.69

7,136 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
45% of Goal | left

Support:

Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
This post is addressed to my fellow religious people. Non-religious folks are certainly welcome to contribute but I ask that they do so respectfully. Plenty of other threads exist for mocking or insulting religions people, religions, etc.

I don't know where the title of the video came from. Tyson never says he's tired of G-d nor anything of the sort. Towards the end of the video, in connection with a discussion of the concept of "god of the gaps" Tyson echoes my own thoughts that believing in G-d merely as a means of explaining away scientific ignorance is really not much of a belief in G-d and makes G-d largely irrelevant to one's life. Yet the overwhelming majority of times when I ask someone why they believe in G-d, the answer is a version of either "There's so much science can't really explain" or "I had a textbook religious experience." Every time, I get those answers, I cringe. They all portray G-d as nothing more relevant than a vague feeling of awe and mystery to which the application of knowledge and genuine understanding is somehow sacrilegious. We as religious people we owe it to ourselves to have better reasons to believe in G-d than a god of the gaps.

The popular conception, all too common even among religious people, is that science is opposed to religions. It's not; inherently science is neutral. The idea that science opposes religion is fundamentally as ignorant as the notion that science is catching up to religion. Yet religions can benefit from science. If we accept the reality of science and evaluate our ideas in light of it, we have the potential to reinvigorate and revolutionize religious thought. Let us as religious people revitalize our religions so that they do not waste time on questions that science could answer in principle and instead focus on questions which by their nature science cannot address, not due to lack of knowledge but because those questions are philosophical and subjective. Instead of simplistically asking, "Why are we here?" let us ask, "How do we make our lives meaningful?"

For me, the beginning of the answer comes from when the prophet was shown that G-d is heard not in the awe inspiring and spectacular events but in that calm deep inner voice when we are at peace. None of that negates that such an inner voice is ourselves talking to ourselves. We are not G-d but G-d is us, just not only us.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jage
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The last sentence sounds very Quaker-ish to me.

Why do you believe in God?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Cates
United States
Visalia
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree, here's two dozen or so reasons to believe in God.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jage
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ironcates wrote:


That was an interesting article, but I found it quite dense from a philosophical point of view. Do you perchance have a different, easier-to-digest wording somewhere?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Staff
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I didn't watch but what's the deal with "G-d?"
The "G" word or something?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
msg tools
whac3 wrote:
None of that negates that such an inner voice is ourselves talking to ourselves. We are not G-d but G-d is us, just not only us.

I'm not technically "religious," since I don't belong to any organized religious entity nor do I attend church, temple, or mosque. But your last sentence closely approximates my feeling and my belief.

As I've stated before, I think all religions are right, and all of them are wrong. Whatever God is or isn't, we humans in my opinion don't have the faintest grasp of what that is or what it means. I don't claim to have any answer but my own. There is something ... there. Or here. Or everywhere. Or maybe even nowhere. But it .... is.

In many ways, science is exactly like religion, a search for meaningful answers to important questions, AND, having barely scratched the surface of knowledge, it strives to learn more but is proud of what is known.

And, in my mind, like religion, science will find it cannot explain everything. Most things, definitely. But I have a feeling that even science can't explain every little or big thing that happens in the universe. The difference, of course, is that science is provable (fact) while religion is not (faith).

Excellent thread, Moshe.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Diabolik771 wrote:
I didn't watch but what's the deal with "G-d?"
The "G" word or something?


Moshe, like many prscticing Jews is forbidden/restrained from spewking the name of G-d, including simoly as an appellation. I tend to do it in threads he starts too, just out of respect.
9 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 8 27 Feb - 1 Mar 2015 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk Essex Games 27 Jul '15
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
The science is opposed to religion view I think has three main sources:

The first is historical. While the story of Galileo and the pope is generally oversimplified, it's an example of where when religion had secular power, science didn't fare well.

The second (which I separate from the first because that was history, and about power, this is not) is that some religious people have nailed their colours to various positions, including things that just aren't so. An Earth that is thousands, rather than thousands of millions of years old for one example. The techniques used are going to show up again in the next point, but it's a case where religion has gone up against science and doesn't have a winning hand.

The third is the other way round. There's a view that to accept anything as true needs evidence. The harder that thing is, the more evidence is needed. This works very well in science. Then there's a split between those who say, that rule applies in science, but it's wrong to apply it outside science, and those who say there's no box you should limit it to, it applies universally. Including to religion. As indicated, some religious people reject that proposition. Some make a virtue out of faith being superior to reason. But some religious people will accept the challenge and say yes, evidence needed - we have the evidence. And then argument follows. Which can at the least be seen as science vs. religion, though others wouldn't so characterise it. And in that discussion there are a number of fronts, one being the non-religious side concentrating on details like the Flood, one being religious people concentrating on details science hasn't answered, at least yet (which leads to a God of the gaps) and one being tackling the big questions, God, free will and so on. (Free will is hard on both sides.)
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
msg tools
Diabolik771 wrote:
I didn't watch but what's the deal with "G-d?"
The "G" word or something?

In some religions, it is a sin, perhaps even blasphemy, to say or write "God." If you'll notice, Muslims always say something to the effect of "Allah, may His name be blessed."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fightcitymayor
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Proprietor and Chairman Emeritus of The Naughty Palace
mb
remorseless1 wrote:
In many ways, science is exactly like religion...
Sweet Jesus, not that old equivalency chestnut again!

But seriously...
If you ask your average American Christian Protestant Evangelical to have a "philosophical discussion" about god, most will just give you a blank stare and reiterate that Jesus helped them find their car keys that morning, so.... GOD IS GOOD! The so-called "god of the gaps" lets believers who can't/won't delve into the philosophical & theological aspects of religion still feel like they belong.

So while I understand that true religion has to go beyond the car keys nonsense, when it comes to the great unwashed masses it's a lot easier to justify their position by attempting to poke tiny holes in science instead.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 8 27 Feb - 1 Mar 2015 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk Essex Games 27 Jul '15
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
jageroxorz wrote:
ironcates wrote:


That was an interesting article, but I found it quite dense from a philosophical point of view. Do you perchance have a different, easier-to-digest wording somewhere?


No, he won't. Because denseness is all those arguments have. If you actually simplify them down, they disappear. I'll give an example below. But those are the worst kind of argument religions ever offer - you have to fall into a very narrow group of people who actually understand enough to think there's an argument there, but not be smart enough (which takes very little more) not to recognise the argument is nonsense.

But those are arguments of a sort that only convince the convinced. And not most of them. Presented with the ontological argument (which I formerly thought was the worst argument on the record, but some of those are worse) no one says "now I believe in God". The overwhelming majority of believers, if the argument is de-obfusticated and explained will then say "I still believe - but not because of that". The uselessness on the ontological argument is one to unite most believers and non-believers.

However I'll go with a different one. The natural numbers. We start 0,1,2,... And carry on forever. Now sooner or later, we are going to reach a number that no human comprehends. Hence God. Really, it's that bad. Believe or don't believe. But not because of that.
13 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Staff
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The universe and it all explained. Gather 'round kids!
"God" is Gravity,Electricity, Magnetism, Matter, and all the other forces that are out there that interact throughout the galaxies. It always was and always will be. Our 3 lb brains cannot grasp the significance of this.
People made "stories" of these phenomena to try to "explain" them and these became "religions". They called these forces "God".
Everyone is right and everyone is wrong about everything.
There, the mystery of the universe is solved.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
jageroxorz wrote:
The last sentence sounds very Quaker-ish to me.

Why do you believe in God?

1. I believe in Hashem, G-d of the Jewish people. The Name Hashem is a verb-- not a participle but an active indicative verb. The reason I mention this is that my concept of G-d is not like the Christian one of some Creator entity distinct from Creation. Rather all things are manifestations of the thoughts of G-d. In a very real sense, given my very traditional Jewish conception of G-d, belief in G-d is a choice of point of view or of philosophy, a choice to view the world as something intrinsically unified, meaningful/significant/worthwhile, and in its way comprehensible. G-d explains nothing but is on the individual level the impetus to strive to be better, to do more, and to make the world a better place than if I merely stumbled through life content to eat, sleep, and copulate. On the larger scale, G-d is much more, not least partner of the Jewish people in the contract of Torah, without which there is no Jewish people, and I choose to believe in G-d as I believe in the Jewish people.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
remorseless1 wrote:
…In many ways, science is exactly like religion, a search for meaningful answers to important questions,…

except that the two things, religion and science, are equipped to answer non-overlapping sets of questions. Religions are no more equipped to answer why the sun shines than science is equipped to answer why one should strive to be a good person even when being "bad" has no consequences and/or no one else is hurt.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
Diabolik771 wrote:
The universe and it all explained. Gather 'round kids!
"God" is Gravity,Electricity, Magnetism, Matter, and all the other forces that are out there that interact throughout the galaxies. It always was and always will be. Our 3 lb brains cannot grasp the significance of this.
People made "stories" of these phenomena to try to "explain" them and these became "religions". They called these forces "God".
Everyone is right and everyone is wrong about everything.
There, the mystery of the universe is solved.

What a load of pseudo-scientific crap.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Beaton
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
I have a cunning plan
mbmbmbmbmb
The argument that the physical constants of the universe are fine-tuned to allow our existence is probably the best of the lot. I don't personally find it very convincing, but at least it's a real, positive argument that doesn't rely on a bunch of obfuscation and hair-splitting.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Staff
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Diabolik771 wrote:
The universe and it all explained. Gather 'round kids!
"God" is Gravity,Electricity, Magnetism, Matter, and all the other forces that are out there that interact throughout the galaxies. It always was and always will be. Our 3 lb brains cannot grasp the significance of this.
People made "stories" of these phenomena to try to "explain" them and these became "religions". They called these forces "God".
Everyone is right and everyone is wrong about everything.
There, the mystery of the universe is solved.

What a load of pseudo-scientific crap.

See, you are both wrong and right. laughThat's God for you.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
msg tools
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
…In many ways, science is exactly like religion, a search for meaningful answers to important questions,…

except that the two things, religion and science, are equipped to answer non-overlapping sets of questions. Religions are no more equipped to answer why the sun shines than science is equipped to answer why one should strive to be a good person even when being "bad" has no consequences and/or no one else is hurt.

Agree but ... science is a search for answers. Religion is a search for answers. The questions may be entirely separate but the intent is the same, is it not? Science seeks to explain and understand the natural world and its processes. Religion seeks to explain why we exist and what we should do with existence. Totally different, but each include a set of questions that the scientist/the faithful seek to answer.

Think of it as a railroad locomotive and a 2016 Prius. Each entity transports something, but the methodology of how they do that and why are radically different: the locomotive must travel on rails, the Prius is able to travel a wide variety of roads going in a wide variety of directions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
aiabx wrote:
The argument that the physical constants of the universe are fine-tuned to allow our existence is probably the best of the lot. I don't personally find it very convincing, but at least it's a real, positive argument that doesn't rely on a bunch of obfuscation and hair-splitting.

This is just the Anthropic principle, which IMO is an attempt to build a simple truism (that if the universe that exists did not specifically match what we need to exist then we would not exist) into something meaningful and significant.

The answer to the Anthropic principle is not G-d but rather "Well, duh".
17 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Professor of Pain
United States
St. Joseph
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
…In many ways, science is exactly like religion, a search for meaningful answers to important questions,…

except that the two things, religion and science, are equipped to answer non-overlapping sets of questions. Religions are no more equipped to answer why the sun shines than science is equipped to answer why one should strive to be a good person even when being "bad" has no consequences and/or no one else is hurt.

More fundamentally, religion is more equipped to answer (or define) what it means to be a "good" vs. "bad" person than are the hard sciences, yet there are other systems that can answer that question just as well if not better, along with questions about why we should strive to be good.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
The popular conception, all too common even among religious people, is that science is opposed to religions. It's not; inherently science is neutral. The idea that science opposes religion is fundamentally as ignorant as the notion that science is catching up to religion. Yet religions can benefit from science. If we accept the reality of science and evaluate our ideas in light of it, we have the potential to reinvigorate and revolutionize religious thought.

This is a powerful philosophy. Put another way rejecting the tool that is science is rejecting your religious beliefs. Or, at the least, it is circumscribing your ability to progress religiously. It embraces the notion that God and the observable world are irreconcilable.

Quote:
Instead of simplistically asking, "Why are we here?" let us ask, "How do we make our lives meaningful?"

Off topic, but isn't the second question predicated on the first. How do you make your college experience meaningful, for example, without comprehending your purpose for being there in the first place?

Quote:
For me, the beginning of the answer comes from when the prophet was shown that G-d is heard not in the awe inspiring and spectacular events but in that calm deep inner voice when we are at peace. None of that negates that such an inner voice is ourselves talking to ourselves. We are not G-d but G-d is us, just not only us.

Agree (with the sentiment, not the underlying theological assumptions). Interacting with God is a spiritual experience. But it is also consistent with material observations. Like Alma told Korihor: "The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it..."
2 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
remorseless1 wrote:

Agree but ... science is a search for answers. Religion is a search for answers. The questions may be entirely separate but the intent is the same, is it not?…

Here I would emphatically answer no.

Science is the search for questions with objective answers. Religion is an exploration of answers to entirely subjective questions.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
rayito2702 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
The popular conception, all too common even among religious people, is that science is opposed to religions. It's not; inherently science is neutral. The idea that science opposes religion is fundamentally as ignorant as the notion that science is catching up to religion. Yet religions can benefit from science. If we accept the reality of science and evaluate our ideas in light of it, we have the potential to reinvigorate and revolutionize religious thought.

This is a powerful philosophy. Put another way rejecting the tool that is science is rejecting your religious beliefs. Or, at the least, it is circumscribing your ability to progress religiously. It embraces the notion that God and the observable world are irreconcilable.

Agree.
Quote:
Quote:
Instead of simplistically asking, "Why are we here?" let us ask, "How do we make our lives meaningful?"

Off topic, but isn't the second question predicated on the first. How do you make your college experience meaningful, for example, without comprehending your purpose for being there in the first place?

That's one possible way or answering but not the only way.
Quote:
Quote:
For me, the beginning of the answer comes from when the prophet was shown that G-d is heard not in the awe inspiring and spectacular events but in that calm deep inner voice when we are at peace. None of that negates that such an inner voice is ourselves talking to ourselves. We are not G-d but G-d is us, just not only us.

Agree (with the sentiment, not the underlying theological assumptions). Interacting with God is a spiritual experience. But it is also consistent with material observations. Like Alma told Korihor: "The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it..."

Yet interacting with G-d is every single interaction a person ever has.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
Elfbane wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
…In many ways, science is exactly like religion, a search for meaningful answers to important questions,…

except that the two things, religion and science, are equipped to answer non-overlapping sets of questions. Religions are no more equipped to answer why the sun shines than science is equipped to answer why one should strive to be a good person even when being "bad" has no consequences and/or no one else is hurt.

More fundamentally, religion is more equipped to answer (or define) what it means to be a "good" vs. "bad" person than are the hard sciences, yet there are other systems that can answer that question just as well if not better, along with questions about why we should strive to be good.

I pointedly avoided reference to ethics. One can have ethics without religion and indeed religion without ethics. Ancient paganisms in the Classical world were not inherently ethical (nor unethical) philosophies. One did or did not do something in the ethical sense because of law/tradition.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
10/₆
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
"Sometimes, the dark side overcomes what Lincoln called the better angels of our nature"
mb
For me, the divine "God" is all of creation and reality, and all sciences/physics contained within are constructs of that higher power, that is "God". No placing him in the gaps of knowledge, but all knowledge attained and not attained mere tools of the reality he has created.
4 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [7] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.