$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 133.26

7,796 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
49.1% of Goal | left

Support:

J.D. Hall
msg tools
Personally, I don't care why my wife can have one (or more), just glad she can:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/02/health/female-orgasm-evolution...

Disclaimer: My first major in college was psychology, and sexuality is/was a major part of learning about human behavior. So I'm fascinated with these kinds of studies on an intellectual level as well as a prurient one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
Why did CNN have to throw in "50 Shades of Gray"? What the heck has that tale of abuse got to do with a female orgasm and its evolution?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
msg tools
whac3 wrote:
Why did CNN have to throw in "50 Shades of Gray"? What the heck has that tale of abuse got to do with a female orgasm and its evolution?

You just had to look at the pictures, didn't you? Perv laugh

Not that I disagree.... blush
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dickie Crickets
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Sorry, but I still don't believe the female orgasm exists. I've been dating for almost 20 years, and no lover of mine has ever had one. Explain that!
12 
 Thumb up
1.06
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
eaglebeak wrote:
Sorry, but I still don't believe the female orgasm exists. I've been dating for almost 20 years, and no lover of mine has ever had one. Explain that!

So your technique sucks.

EDIT:
There's this thing called a cliterus. Use it in conjunction with lots of foreplay.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
msg tools
whac3 wrote:
eaglebeak wrote:
Sorry, but I still don't believe the female orgasm exists. I've been dating for almost 20 years, and no lover of mine has ever had one. Explain that!

So your technique sucks.

I'm hoping he's kidding.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
remorseless1 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
eaglebeak wrote:
Sorry, but I still don't believe the female orgasm exists. I've been dating for almost 20 years, and no lover of mine has ever had one. Explain that!

So your technique sucks.

I'm hoping he's kidding.

Me too but he'd not be the first if he weren't.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jeremy cobert
United States
cedar rapids
Iowa
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
eaglebeak wrote:
Sorry, but I still don't believe the female orgasm exists. I've been dating for almost 20 years, and no lover of mine has ever had one. Explain that!


I think you're dating a lot of lesbians, that's the only thing that comes to mind.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dickie Crickets
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
remorseless1 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
eaglebeak wrote:
Sorry, but I still don't believe the female orgasm exists. I've been dating for almost 20 years, and no lover of mine has ever had one. Explain that!

So your technique sucks.

I'm hoping he's kidding.


Just some self-deprecating humor.

That said, it's an interesting article. Evolutionary psychology is a big thing in some social/political circles on-line, so this sort of study is always going to be worth a peek. I had always just taken the Occam's Razor route and assumed women had orgasms as a simple way of encouraging reproduction.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dickie Crickets
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:
eaglebeak wrote:
Sorry, but I still don't believe the female orgasm exists. I've been dating for almost 20 years, and no lover of mine has ever had one. Explain that!


I think you're dating a lot of lesbians, that's the only thing that comes to mind.


Not totally wrong, to be fair. I lost my virginity to a lesbian in high school, although we were both unaware of her orientation at the time. (Sheltered suburban kids from back in the day, and so on.) Much later on we both happened to be in Boston, and she sent me an E-mail asking me to dinner to catch up. She (humorously) demanded I pay, because I was responsible for her loss of her Gold Star, and thus she could never become a made woman in the Lesbian Mafia.

I pride myself on being the man that women regret, even decades later. They never forget ya!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jarek Szczepanik
Norway
Oslo
Norge
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
50 Shades of Gray? CNN! Why?

The hypothesis that the female orgasm is something our ancestors needed for their reproduction but we do not (at least when it comes to reproduction alone), makes sense. The second part involving several evolutionary psychology hypotheses lacks credibility (just like the evolutionary psychology itself). IMO a lot of what they wrote on female orgasm and sexuality is more a matter of culture than evolution or biology.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
msg tools
Okay, now that we have the giggles over with....

The main reason I started this thread is because of the cultural arguments concerning female orgasm. As the study notes, male orgasm is critical to reproduction and is easier to, ahem, grasp. But for millennia, the female orgasm has been dismissed or discounted. As late as the 19th Century, orgasmic women were treated by doctors for "hysteria."

Now the article is good enough to bring in both sides, with arguments being presented that female orgasm is/is not vital to reproduction. I would posit that the female orgasm is part of the human make up that makes a thinking animal (human) want to engage in and enjoy sexual relations. Unlike other animals, a human female has a choice in determining sexual partners (outside of rape and molestation -- we're talking in generalities here), and the orgasm is the reward? for continuing the species.

Let's be honest as well. When males engage in sexual relations, it is rare for them (us) to be thinking about reproduction. We just want to have fun. So maybe orgasms are God's/nature's way of encouraging sexual relations in a species that has divorced itself in the main from genetic and biological imperatives.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
msg tools
Svartisen wrote:
50 Shades of Gray? CNN! Why?

The hypothesis that the female orgasm is something our ancestors needed for their reproduction but we do not (at least when it comes to reproduction alone), makes sense. The second part involving several evolutionary psychology hypotheses lacks credibility (just like the evolutionary psychology itself). IMO a lot of what they wrote on female orgasm and sexuality is more a matter of culture than evolution or biology.

Thanks. Glad someone read a little deeper.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dickie Crickets
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Svartisen wrote:

The second part involving several evolutionary psychology hypotheses lacks credibility (just like the evolutionary psychology itself). IMO a lot of what they wrote on female orgasm and sexuality is more a matter of culture than evolution or biology.


I've gone down the Men's Right's rabbit hole a few times, and evolutionary psychology is a huge hobbyhorse in those circles. It's usually used as a quasi-scientific justification for their inherent sexism; i.e., why it's admirable for men to sleep around, but any woman who enjoys sex is essentially a glorified whore. This leads to a number of logical conundrums - if women having casual sex is so bad, why are you trying to get them to engage in it? - but there it is.

I do think that looking at things from an evolutionary/biological standpoint has some value, but at the end of the day, we humans have achieved some kind of sentience. Who cares if the female orgasm doesn't necessarily make it easier to make babies? It's fucking Miller Time, ladies. Enjoy yourselves.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jarek Szczepanik
Norway
Oslo
Norge
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
eaglebeak wrote:
Svartisen wrote:

The second part involving several evolutionary psychology hypotheses lacks credibility (just like the evolutionary psychology itself). IMO a lot of what they wrote on female orgasm and sexuality is more a matter of culture than evolution or biology.


I've gone down the Men's Right's rabbit hole a few times, and evolutionary psychology is a huge hobbyhorse in those circles. It's usually used as a quasi-scientific justification for their inherent sexism; i.e., why it's admirable for men to sleep around, but any woman who enjoys sex is essentially a glorified whore. This leads to a number of logical conundrums - if women having casual sex is so bad, why are you trying to get them to engage in it? - but there it is.

I do think that looking at things from an evolutionary/biological standpoint has some value, but at the end of the day, we humans have achieved some kind of sentience. Who cares if the female orgasm doesn't necessarily make it easier to make babies? It's fucking Miller Time, ladies. Enjoy yourselves.


Yes you're right - looking at us from an evolutionary standpoint does have value but we must be aware of three things while doing so:

(i) if there were enough time for a feature to be the product of the evolution (for most features that, according to evolutionary psychologists, are explained by the evolutionary psychology, there were not enough time. And cultural approach makes a better job here)

(ii) evolutionary psychologists fall right into the trap of so called panadaptationism (an assumption that all features of the organism have adaptive value and have evolved 'for a reason'). The truth is, that many features are by-products of evolution of other complex features or residues of some non-functional organs/processes/behaviours. In reality, it's very difficult to prove that a given feature is a product of some kind of selection process

(iii) humans are affected by both biological and cultural evolution and biologists today admit that culture played a much more important role in making of who we are than they initially thought
4 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
msg tools
Excellent points.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mac Mcleod
United States
houston
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/04/orgasm.aspx
Quote:
For example, researchers at the University of Manchester found fewer sperm in the post-coital “flowback” of women who had orgasms versus those who didn’t (Animal Behaviour, Vol. 46, No. 1.) Another research team, at the Universities of Erlangen and Gottingen, Germany, found through a series of studies that uterine contractions are the primary method of sperm transportation. These contractions move sperm not only into the uterus, but laterally, toward the more mature ovarian follicle, and women who are better at doing this are more likely to get pregnant, according to a study published in Animal Behaviour (Vol. 4, No. 4). Pair that with research showing that uterine contractions intensify during the oxytocin release triggered by orgasm, and you have compelling evidence that the female orgasm, while certainly not necessary, can play a role in fertilization, says Komisaruk.


In my experience, women are capable of many orgasms during a sexual encounter. For most, that takes about a dozen encounters to reach full potential. Sincere body complements between and during play as much a role as physical interaction or "tricks". Many women are not comfortable with their bodies at first.

Every woman I've had a relationship with was capable of clitoral, g-spot, and deep vaginal orgasms. I understand some can anally as well. However, when I was younger, one did break off sex after having her first orgasm with me. It scared her.

Once women get in the zone, unlike men, they can continue to have orgasms every 1-3 minutes for long periods. Some females have said this scares them too. Too pleasurable and addicting; fear of loss of control.

A man can get close to this experience by edging. It's also possible to ejaculate without orgasm which greatly reduces the recovery time for a male. But seriously- imagine being at the edge of an orgasm for over an hour and your entire body glowing with pleasure- not just yer crotch. It's worth it.

If anything would explain a lack of orgasms requirement, I would say two to three millennia (maybe as much as 10 millennia or more*) of patriarchy. Men who could impregnate females who were not interested dominated the gene pool for a long time. It could also explain some of the incredibly tiny penises out there (like 1-2"). For centuries, size literally didn't matter. Males did very bad things to women (in and out of marriage) for a long time.

In the developed world, I think we now have sexual selection by females under way again as they are no longer controlled financially by men as often. Penis size may increase on average as a result.

A major challenge for couples is the random rejection death spiral.

A lot of people (men and women) are really just not that interested in sex. And that's okay. It's just not a priority to them. And some men and women are too messed up for sex or have particular fetishes. That's okay too but it may be harder for them to find a symbiotic mate, breed successfully, and then raise the kids.

From the above article..
Quote:
“Sexuality is a wonderfully complex thing,” she says. “We shouldn’t be so focused on getting to the finish line.”


*This is enough time for 500 generations of humans- more if the generations are faster than 20 years. If it started back at 100,000 years- that would be 5000 generations.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Watson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmb
eaglebeak wrote:
I had always just taken the Occam's Razor route and assumed women had orgasms as a simple way of encouraging reproduction.


I'd think the occam's razor standpoint would be that it's a lot more efficient from an evolutionary standpoint to simply leave the wiring in place as it were rather than rewire, or indeed develop an entirely different nervous system, for one gender (in fact I think the nervous system is already in place before the genitalia differentiate?).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
msg tools
Good point. It would be highly inefficient to, as you say, redesign the entire nervous system just for something that is somewhat meaningless from a biological standpoint.

It also points out how men got screwed by evolution. Our orgasms are vital to reproduction, but one will do the trick. So outside of sexual athletes like Maxo (kidding man, just kidding), most men are limited to one orgasm per encounter, sometimes two, and three is a mountain that is tough to scale. Women, on the other hand, can rip off five orgasms in 20 minutes and keep on going. Not all of them, of course, but I think that's more due to cultural imprinting than biology.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonatan Rullman
Sweden
Solberga
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I believe I have a similar article in a science magazine from the mid 90s. Doesn't sound like there's been much progress in 20 years unfortunately.

Cheers
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mac Mcleod
United States
houston
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
remorseless1 wrote:
Good point. It would be highly inefficient to, as you say, redesign the entire nervous system just for something that is somewhat meaningless from a biological standpoint.

It also points out how men got screwed by evolution. Our orgasms are vital to reproduction, but one will do the trick. So outside of sexual athletes like Maxo (kidding man, just kidding), most men are limited to one orgasm per encounter, sometimes two, and three is a mountain that is tough to scale. Women, on the other hand, can rip off five orgasms in 20 minutes and keep on going. Not all of them, of course, but I think that's more due to cultural imprinting than biology.


What I try to get across is that everything I do is equally possible to any other male who makes sex a priority. Most men are too focused on the orgasm and miss tons of pleasure. I'm not particularly an athlete. I'm old, have high blood pressure, diabetes, and use hormone replacement therapy. I have a one orgasm limit so it's my interest to stretch it out over hours (and lately due to Ilthuan over several days which has been kind of amazing).

edit- (and again- standing and 'dancing' for an hour is much easier than doing a pushup for an hour. One word- massage tables. Er. I mean two words. Or sex furniture. That's also two words tho it's three with the "Or".).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
mbmbmbmbmb
Svartisen wrote:


(i) if there were enough time for a feature to be the product of the evolution (for most features that, according to evolutionary psychologists, are explained by the evolutionary psychology, there were not enough time. And cultural approach makes a better job here)


Can you elaborate on this? Most evolutionary psychology accounts I've read look at traits that would have been evolving before "we" became homo sapiens. For example, if one looks at the evolutionary basis for promiscuity, you're not talking about something that evolved in modern humans but that was already largely or entirely in place as that branching took place.
Quote:

(ii) evolutionary psychologists fall right into the trap of so called panadaptationism (an assumption that all features of the organism have adaptive value and have evolved 'for a reason'). The truth is, that many features are by-products of evolution of other complex features or residues of some non-functional organs/processes/behaviours. In reality, it's very difficult to prove that a given feature is a product of some kind of selection process


Agreed. This is a challenge for evolutionary scientists in general, though. We have to be very careful about assuming reasons for the existence of a trait, and need to look for testable hypotheses.

Quote:
(iii) humans are affected by both biological and cultural evolution and biologists today admit that culture played a much more important role in making of who we are than they initially thought


I think nature vs. nurture is very much a living debate. Whether one is "much more important than initially thought" depends a lot on whose initial thoughts we're talking about. We're certainly affected by environment but we're not tabula rasa, either. In my experience there are people who go "too far" in each direction.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jarek Szczepanik
Norway
Oslo
Norge
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Svartisen wrote:


(i) if there were enough time for a feature to be the product of the evolution


Can you elaborate on this? Most evolutionary psychology accounts I've read look at traits that would have been evolving before "we" became homo sapiens. For example, if one looks at the evolutionary basis for promiscuity, you're not talking about something that evolved in modern humans but that was already largely or entirely in place as that branching took place.


It seems that sexual behaviour of a species is something that changes very easily. If we look at our relatives, humans, chimps, bonobos and gorillas, all have different sexual behaviour. I would be cautious about any evolutionary reasoning here for a simple reason - primates are unique mammals - here females have lost oestrus, which acts as a 'sexual behaviour regulator' in other mammals. That means, that primates, including humans actually lack any 'natural rules' when it comes to sexual life and - as a consequence - there is less material for the evolution to operate on. More or less stable monogamy is very common among primates and it is thought to have evolved to counter infanticide by males. Whether a given primate is a monogamist or shifts towards promiscuity or polygamy, may be a result of other factors. It's difficult to show clearly what environmental or social factors could have driven the process. The main reason for that is that we are the only hominids alive, there are only a few species of great apes. One more important factor - if hominids and apes are so rare, and almost all species in this group have experienced many bottlenecks during their history, genetic drift and other neutral evolutionary mechanisms step in. In such cases, one should be very cautious when trying to give some adaptive explanation for certain traits. Even though some ideas born from the evolutionary psychology can be interesting, they are only a guess and can be hardly falsified.

Chad_Ellis wrote:

I think nature vs. nurture is very much a living debate. Whether one is "much more important than initially thought" depends a lot on whose initial thoughts we're talking about. We're certainly affected by environment but we're not tabula rasa, either. In my experience there are people who go "too far" in each direction.


You're right. And we lack any clues which could tell us how far can we go either way. Mostly due to reasons stated earlier - we very few examples of other human-like primates and the genotypes of all apes were severilly affected by neutral evolution.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.