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Ber
France
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Hello guys,

My gaming group has trouble to regularly gather 6 players, so I find myself playing as many 5 players game as 6 players.

Instead of the regular 5 players setup that I find disblanced towards Tyrell and Baratheon, we usually play with no Greyjoy and Pyke impregnable.

However, we recently tried the ADWD expansion, which we liked because players were directly at each other throats and it seemed to get the ball rolling faster than the usual stalling game that can occur once everyone has taken their .
Problem is, a 5 player setup of this expansion seems difficult to balance without a big overhaul.

So instead of trying to come up with a 5 players setup on ADWD, I figured I would design a setup that would be thematically true to a different moment from the books, and I settled for the middle of a Clash of Kings, more precisely :
Spoiler (click to reveal)
After the death of Renly and the taking of Winterfell by Theon and just before the battle of the Blackwater.
So Tyrell troops are considered Lannister, and Stark garrison would be in Riverrun.


The houses used would be Stark, Greyjoy, Lannister, Baratheon and Martell. Tyrell would be out but Highgarden and Oldtown would get a 3-strength garrison.

Here is the setup

For now, I would be using the cards from the vanilla game, although ultimately if it proves interesting, I would like to do some thematical substitutions.
Namely:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Eddard and Rodrik Cassel out
Arnolf Karstark, Maege Mormont, Edmure Tully or Brienne in

Euron out
Rodrik the Reader, Wex or Reek (Ramsay) in

Renly and Brienne out
Axell Florent, Alester Florent, Selyse or Shireen in

Jaime out (prisoner)
Bronn, Ilyn Payne or Joffrey in


Before I get to try it, I would be interested to gather feedbacks on whether it looked balanced enough, or if I didn't miss a killer first move that would potentially destroy a house.
I know Stark and Lannister are in a precarious position, so I put them strong in the influence tracks, but again, I might have missed something.

So, any thoughts?
 
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Ber
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Well... I thought some people might be interested and give advice, but it's probably less fancy than 9 or 10 players variants

I'll give it a try next time I have a chance and update the thread.
 
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Björn Grafström
Sweden
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It might be thematically good but Lannister looks pretty f*cked as Greyjoy or Stark should take Lannisport (I would do it turn 1 as Greyjoy to get that sweet sea dominance) and Baratheon is in a position to take King's Landing on turn 2. At least put the Lannister ship in The Golden Sound so Lannister doesn't have to use a precious march order to force at least a combat from Greyjoy.
 
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Ber
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It's not necessarily true if Lannister puts a D+2 order, but if Stark and Greyjoy strikes a deal, Lannisport is in a very bad position indeed and Lannister has few ways to keep Lannisport, but maybe it's the way it should be anyway?

I'm less concerned about King's Landing as it's turn 2, and anyway, Lannister has to make peace with someone to have a chance to win, as everyone does.

I'm cautious about strengthening too much his position because on the other hand, Lannister has the raven to adapt and the throne to play first, and can have Highgarden on turn 1 as well to compensate a loss of Lannisport or King's Landing in the couple first turns.

So maybe as you say, the ship in the Golden Sound might be enough, or we could have a KN in Lannisport if it's not enough.
 
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Sir Zeliec
Bulgaria
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I pretty much like the idea and some of the setup.

What I would suggest- 1 Lanny Ship in Blackwater Bay and the Lanny port ship to be in Golden Sound
KL should get a garrison token (Similar to AFFC).

Old Town and Highgarden seem pretty OP to stay as SHs with such close proximity. Lannister can capture Old town on turn 1, however they can loose both Lannisport and KL in turn 1. I don't see a way to prevent it in the current setup.

So I would make Oldtown a castle. Highgarden can remain SH but with 5 garrison.
Unless you change some of Lanny standard cards with ADWD cards, I would recommend making the knights soldiers. So they have a fighting chance in the first round
Reach KN becomes - FM and +1 FM in Stoney Sept
Blackwater KB becomes FM and +1 FM in LP

Obviously if Stark and GJ ally you have 0 chance But that's expected. But if I'm Stark and the Craken has WF and Moat Calin I'll never negotiate anything unless they move away (which they won't)

I see Martell can play a solo match retaking the south in couple of turns, the only real contest, MIGHT be The Reach. (They can always get storm's end from Baratheon) due to Sea of Dorne, with so much on Lanny's plate he can't contest Oldtown and Highgarden. I doubt the cracken will either, as he'll love his ship support for his footmen.

The cracken also has it easy mode owning the entire east region of the map making it likely for his footmen to upgrade to SE and siege any water adjacent area.

I'm not too worried about Stark they have the best defensive cards + when was loosing a battle an issue for the Stark, they would return stronger from it unless patchfaced but I doubt bara would waste it on them.

I'm also with mixed feeling about Baratheon, even though he seems to stand strong, with a ship in BWB and if KL has Garison, Lanny can easily go after him and if a good deal between Bara and Martell is struck, bara is as good as wiped, even though that would expose the Lanny's east side.

IDK I'll math it a bit and let you know

But yeah, Martel can only retake the neutral areas, Storm's end and The Reach and he wins, which is not even hard given the fact nobody wants to go after Martell as Doran said so!
 
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Renan Stigliani
Canada
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I really like the idea, but I think I would do some more changes, I think Ser Zeliec is right about Martell, is going to be to easy for him.

I also thin that the only way of removing a player is to have some unconquerable areas, hence I would try something like this map


I dont have too much time to write now, but generally speaking, I decreased the untis overral power, changed some cards and tracks, but the idea would be the same
 
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Ber
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Thanks for the detailed feedback It's good to have other opinions.

steelhoh wrote:
What I would suggest- 1 Lanny Ship in Blackwater Bay and the Lanny port ship to be in Golden Sound
KL should get a garrison token (Similar to AFFC).

To be honest, I like the idea of King's Landing being weak to a Baratheon invasion unless Lannister is fully committed to defend it and/or Baratheon is pressured somewhere else, so i'm not too happy with adding a big garrison or a fleet to defend it.
Putting the ship from Lannisport to the Golden Sound however makes sense, although I'm not sure it will help Lannister that much.

steelhoh wrote:
Old Town and Highgarden seem pretty OP to stay as SHs with such close proximity. Lannister can capture Old town on turn 1, however they can loose both Lannisport and KL in turn 1. I don't see a way to prevent it in the current setup.

So I would make Oldtown a castle. Highgarden can remain SH but with 5 garrison.

I'd rather stay away from changing elements that are printed (SH to castle), but it's true that Oldtown and Highgarden are not easily accessible by everyone, and a bold Lannister could take Highgarden on turn 1 and Oldtown on turn 2 unchallenged (although he would most likely lose King's Landing and the Reach as a consequence). An uncontested Martell or Greyjoy could as well grab WSS and Redwyne Straight early and sit on it for the remainder of the game.

A possible mitigation would be to raise the value of Oldtown garrison, but again, if possible, I'd rather use the existing printed one.
A more drastic one would be to have Oldtown unassailable which is probably what I would do.

steelhoh wrote:
Unless you change some of Lanny standard cards with ADWD cards, I would recommend making the knights soldiers. So they have a fighting chance in the first round
Reach KN becomes - FM and +1 FM in Stoney Sept
Blackwater KB becomes FM and +1 FM in LP

Obviously if Stark and GJ ally you have 0 chance But that's expected. But if I'm Stark and the Craken has WF and Moat Calin I'll never negotiate anything unless they move away (which they won't)

I was more inclined towards adding a FM to Lannisport which should be enough to keep it from an offensive Stark-Greyjoy alliance until turn 2, and keeping the KN in the Reach so that Lannister can still defend King's Landing and keeps his chance of taking Highgarden turn 1.

steelhoh wrote:
I see Martell can play a solo match retaking the south in couple of turns, the only real contest, MIGHT be The Reach. (They can always get storm's end from Baratheon) due to Sea of Dorne, with so much on Lanny's plate he can't contest Oldtown and Highgarden. I doubt the cracken will either, as he'll love his ship support for his footmen.

The cracken also has it easy mode owning the entire east region of the map making it likely for his footmen to upgrade to SE and siege any water adjacent area.

I'm not too worried about Stark they have the best defensive cards + when was loosing a battle an issue for the Stark, they would return stronger from it unless patchfaced but I doubt bara would waste it on them.

I'm also with mixed feeling about Baratheon, even though he seems to stand strong, with a ship in BWB and if KL has Garison, Lanny can easily go after him and if a good deal between Bara and Martell is struck, bara is as good as wiped, even though that would expose the Lanny's east side.

IDK I'll math it a bit and let you know

But yeah, Martel can only retake the neutral areas, Storm's end and The Reach and he wins, which is not even hard given the fact nobody wants to go after Martell as Doran said so!

Storm's End should not be so easy to take with the garrison, as in ADWD, but it's true that Martell might not have enough pressure if Baratheon doesn't go South. They'll need some time to access Oldtown though. But that might be another reason to make Oldtown unassailable.
I also put their SH in port on purpose so that Baratheon might be tempted to go South.
 
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Ber
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eklam wrote:
I really like the idea, but I think I would do some more changes, I think Ser Zeliec is right about Martell, is going to be to easy for him.

I also thin that the only way of removing a player is to have some unconquerable areas, hence I would try something like this map


I dont have too much time to write now, but generally speaking, I decreased the untis overral power, changed some cards and tracks, but the idea would be the same

Thanks Renan, I don't have too much time to reply either, but it looks like a very interesting take.

I had put more units on the board right from the start on purpose, inspired by ADWD expansion as I found it gets the ball rolling faster than the base game with the aim to speed up our games (which tends to be very long), so on that aspect, I'd rather stick to a higher headcount for each house.

All the other aspects (track, cards, unassailable areas) looks good and will give me some thinking though.
 
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Sir Zeliec
Bulgaria
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Manatane wrote:
eklam wrote:
I really like the idea, but I think I would do some more changes, I think Ser Zeliec is right about Martell, is going to be to easy for him.

I also thin that the only way of removing a player is to have some unconquerable areas, hence I would try something like this map


I dont have too much time to write now, but generally speaking, I decreased the untis overral power, changed some cards and tracks, but the idea would be the same

Thanks Renan, I don't have too much time to reply either, but it looks like a very interesting take.

I had put more units on the board right from the start on purpose, inspired by ADWD expansion as I found it gets the ball rolling faster than the base game with the aim to speed up our games (which tends to be very long), so on that aspect, I'd rather stick to a higher headcount for each house.

All the other aspects (track, cards, unassailable areas) looks good and will give me some thinking though.


This one seems really descent to me TBH.
 
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Ber
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eklam wrote:
I really like the idea, but I think I would do some more changes, I think Ser Zeliec is right about Martell, is going to be to easy for him.

I also thin that the only way of removing a player is to have some unconquerable areas, hence I would try something like this map


I dont have too much time to write now, but generally speaking, I decreased the untis overral power, changed some cards and tracks, but the idea would be the same

OK, I have got more time now.

Questions :
Is the 1 garrison in Blackwater Bay a feature or a bug? If a feature, why not a second ship instead?

I agree with the fact that Martell might be too lonely in my proposal, but I feel that condemning both Highgarden and Oldtown, and removing Storm's End garrison makes him have only 1 way to go : against Baratheon. West Summer Sea looks like a very useless area to occupy (only Greyjoy might be interested by Starfall for a 7th castle grab).

I'd rather keep Highgarden open to still encourage Martell to go East and challenge Greyjoy. I'm also thinking on having a Lannister Ship in the Redwyne Straight (Redwyne fleet), to help him against Greyjoy.

Also regarding Stark, I'd rather keep the FM in Widow's Watch to give him more options to defend White Arbor, otherwise he's forced to play D+2 on WH and use his sword to keep it on turn 1.

So here is what I took from your proposal:
- Made Oldtown unassailable to avoid easy win from Martell and unchallenged loot from early Lannister or Greyjoy.
- Removed FM in Yronwood to give opportunity for Baratheon to take the Boneway and to have Martell needing to choose between reconquering is homeland, attacking or mustering.
- Switch Stark and Baratheon in court track.
- Added a SH in Dragonstone Port and switched KN to FM.

I also added a Lannister SH in Redwyne Straights and moved FM from Blackwater to Stoney Sept to defend Lannisport.

UPDATED VERSION

 
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