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Scythe» Forums » General

Subject: Any official "Rules clarification document" coming soon? rss

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Andreas Vecstric
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(This is mostly a repeat of an older thread where I unfortunatly mentioned the term FAQ. I shouldn't have done that since there is a FAQ in the rulebook already. So here I go with another attempt to explain what I mean/want)

I've been skimming the Rules-forum and even if there is a lot of questions that can be easily answered by referencing to the rulebook. there are however some that seems more 'valid'.

Jamey have been giving good answers to most of these, but it would be nice if these questions were collected in some sort "Rules clarification document" (that is easily printed so you hopefully don't have to search around in the rules forum as much when playing).

Some examples of what could go into this document (I have not gone through the full Rules-forum):
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1615458/objective-card26
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1614529/factory-card-icons
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1609744/unachievable-achiev...
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1612525/when-combat-ends-ga...
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1603891/trade-resources-2-t...

So I wonder: Is there any official "Rules clarification document" coming soon perhaps?
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Christian Fürst-Brunner
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Certainly not while GenCon is running and also not the week after. Maybe later, i think.
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James Mathias
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I think the point folks were trying to make in the other thread is that most of the rules clarifications or frequently asked questions were and are answered by the rulebook already.

I agree that it would be nice to have a collected source for these discussions, perhaps something like the Terra Mystica F.A.Q.? https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Terra_Mystica_FAQ

I think you can make that on BGG without needing approval, so perhaps you would be willing to put it together for the community?
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Christoph Weber
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I guess Jamey will eventually include some more of the rules clarifications on the official FAQ, since it has existed for about two weeks now and been continously expanded since then.

http://stonemaiergames.com/games/scythe/faq-scythe/
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Sky Zero
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Scythe has one of the best rule books I've ever read. I personally don't think anything beyond the rulebook is required.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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It's early days, far too soon to be declaring there's no need for a FAQ. The one in the rulebook was earlier still. It reminds me of the one in Discworld: Ankh-Morpork, which was certainly useful, but that sort of FAQ can only cover what came up during pre-publication playtesting.

When a game is released to the general public it gets a far more rigorous testing, and new questions do tend to arise. Inevitably the bulk of rules queries will be from people who haven't taken time to thoroughly absorb the rules as written, but there are usually some legitimate queries as well from those who do understand what's been written but are approaching the game from a fresh perspective.

I agree with jmathias that the wiki approach is probably the best solution, as it doesn't become the responsibility of a single source and evolves naturally as experienced players in the community take an interest and contribute.
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Michael Penny
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I just can't fathom why there's a need for rules clarifications.

I found that the rules were completely straight-forward and weren't obtuse at all, so I'm personally just baffled at all these rules threads that are popping up.

If people just read the rulebook carefully, they would find all the information they need right there.

After reading through the rulebook twice, (which I must say is probably the best rule book I've ready through) I was able to have a group of 4 people play through it without any incident.

The only exception was that we forgot the loser of combat gets a combat card if they contribute power into the battle, but that was just a memory thing.


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Niko
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CowStriker wrote:
I just can't fathom why there's a need for rules clarifications.
Off the top of my head: As part of one of the threads on here Jamey stated that the region with the mill may not produce any resources when an opponent controls it.
This overrules the "buildings still keep their effect even when in a region under enemy control" rule found in the rule book.

It would be great to have one central place to look for clarifications/changes like that instead of having to read through every single thread on here.
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Michael Penny
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Yeah but that just seems like people are trying to create rules where there weren't any to begin with.

We had that situation happen and played it like it says in the rules.

Guy who built the mill left his mill undefended, another moved in and took it, new guy got resources produced, should have defended the mill.

Like I said, I have just never encountered a situation that wasn't explained in the rulebook to my group's satisfaction, but that's just me. I'm one of many I guess.
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Niko
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CowStriker wrote:
Yeah but that just seems like people are trying to create rules where there weren't any to begin with.

We had that situation happen and played it like it says in the rules.

Guy who built the mill left his mill undefended, another moved in and took it, new guy got resources produced, should have defended the mill.

Like I said, I have just never encountered a situation that wasn't explained in the rulebook to my group's satisfaction, but that's just me. I'm one of many I guess.
I wasn't quite clear in my previous post:
Jamey Stegmaier, the designer of Scythe, has made a ruling in a post here on BGG that a mill that is in a region controlled by another faction may not, under any circumstances including trading coins for said production, be used to produce resources.
Definitely not by the player who took over the region (which is quite clear from the rule book) but also not by the player who build the mill. This isn't just a clarification, but a direct contradiction of the rule book which says that buildings provide their benefit even while the region they are in is not under your control.

As per the rule book the player who build the mill would at least have the choice to produce. Usually they wouldn't do it, but in a case like when they think they can take the region back before the resources are spent/moved or when they get coins from another player (legal trade by the rules) they might want to.

But Jamey has ruled differently and right now the only way to find this out, that I know of, is to stumble across the thread where he made said ruling or one of the other few where it's mentioned.

To me there is a clear benefit with no downside to having one central place where players can go for official rule changes and clarifications and I find it absurd that you and others insist that it is not needed.

Rule changes and clarifications (within reason) do not diminish a game, the rules, or the designer. Why insist that these rules are perfect and immutable?
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Michael Penny
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When I die, I want to die like my grandfather, who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car
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Ah well that's different then.
I honestly didn't know of such a ruling but I'm curious to know how that came about in the first place? That seems like a MASSIVE contradiction for Jamey to just suddenly make all of a sudden to what was written in the rule book.

As for the rules being perfect and immutable, that probably isn't the case for a lot of people, like I said, my results obviously vary.
But so far, playing according to the rulebook, has turned out play sessions for us that were free of confusions in terms or rules clarifications. We simply didn't encounter any scenarios where we were like Wtf? and ran to the geek forums to ask questions.

This is just my 2 cents, I know it won't be the same for everyone.
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Phill Webb
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I thought that the ruling was a clarification that you have to read the Produce rules to see why the Mill can't produce when the opponent is on it.

Produce requires you to select territories you control and if an opponent is on your Mill hex you don't control it and therefore cannot pick it.

Phill
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Thomas P. Felder
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
(...) This isn't just a clarification, but a direct contradiction of the rule book (...)
I am not so sure about that, however, just go ahead and create this wiki as proposed, you don't need consent to do that.
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James Mathias
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There is no rules contradiction in terms of buildings and their function while in enemy control.

You can only produce on territories you control. Which means if your mill is on an enemy controlled hex, it's not available to you for production.

You cannot move using the mine from an enemy controlled hex, because when you enter an enemy controlled hex, movement ends and a combat happens. Which means if your mine is on an enemy controlled hex, it's not available to you for movement.

Your other two buildings have no in game affect once on the board, so their control is moot.

There is no contradiction, or new ruling. It's all in the rule book. All of the threads in this forum have ended in clarifications, not errata.
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Niko
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jmathias wrote:
There is no rules contradiction in terms of buildings and their function while in enemy control.
Jedi tricks don't work over the internet

Quote:
You can only produce on territories you control. Which means if your mill is on an enemy controlled hex, it's not available to you for production.
Correct for the basic produce action, but not for the mill.
Page 18 says that you always get the benefits of structures you build, even if they are under enemy control. The benefit of the mill is that you may produce in that region, no mention of control.
Ergo you should be able to produce on the region with the mill even if it is enemy controlled.

Quote:
You cannot move using the mine from an enemy controlled hex, because when you enter an enemy controlled hex, movement ends and a combat happens. Which means if your mine is on an enemy controlled hex, it's not available to you for movement.
Of course the mine still maintains its benefit under enemy control: You can move from any tunnel to the region with your mine. If it didn't keep it's benefit this would not be possible.

Quote:
Your other two buildings have no in game affect once on the board, so their control is moot.
Their benefits are clearly outlined on page 18. You might not think of the additional benefits the armoury and monument give as effects of the building, but the rules clearly describe them as such.

Quote:
There is no contradiction, or new ruling. It's all in the rule book. All of the threads in this forum have ended in clarifications, not errata.
I don't care what we are calling it, "a rose by any other name"...
Fact is Jamey has made some statements here in these forums that would be beneficial to have available in one obvious place. Yet some domineering voices shut down every attempt to find out if there is/will be a collection of these.
Apparently the self contradicting online FAQ and page 31 (which is in the printed rules and so obviously can not have the benefit of any of Jamey's statements made after printing) are the greatest thing since sliced bread and no more is needed.

EDIT:
Freeloading Phill wrote:
I thought that the ruling was a clarification that you have to read the Produce rules to see why the Mill can't produce when the opponent is on it.

Produce requires you to select territories you control and if an opponent is on your Mill hex you don't control it and therefore cannot pick it.

Phill
Yes, that is an accurate description. The problem for me was that the rules clearly state that buildings maintain their benefit even under enemy control. I took that to override the "chose regions you control to produce on" part of the basic produce action.
Obviously this was not the intend, and we ended up with the ruling that, despite what the rules say, not all buildings maintain their benefit under enemy control.

EDIT2:
Sternenfahrer-MUC wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
(...) This isn't just a clarification, but a direct contradiction of the rule book (...)
I am not so sure about that,
Call it what you will; contradiction, clarification, mass hallucination because clearly Jamey wrote perfect rules and "You always get the abilities from your structures, except for the mill, [...]" is actually written in the rules we just aren't able to see it (not saying you have that point of view, but some on these forums seem to think Jamey can do no wrong and has created the one perfect game...)
One section of the rules says that you chose regions you control to produce, another says that the mill may be chosen to produce whenever you chose the produce action and that buildings maintain their abilities even when in a region under enemy control.

Quote:
however, just go ahead and create this wiki as proposed, you don't need consent to do that.
I don't think I will, there's enough games with a better community (opinion, feel free to disagree) were I inclined to embark on such an endeavor.

EDIT3:
Quote:
I honestly didn't know of such a ruling but I'm curious to know how that came about in the first place? That seems like a MASSIVE contradiction for Jamey to just suddenly make all of a sudden to what was written in the rule book.
It's not that massive of a contradiction I think. He picked "chose a region you control to produce on" over "All buildings keep their benefit under enemy control"
Clearly not both could be right. I'd just have thought that special rules (building modifying an action) override general rules (how the action works without modification)
As for reading up on it, here you go: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23262902#23262902
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Mill confusion or not (I can easily see how the language on one page could be taken to override the other page, especially with the "extra territory" wording), I think there have been occasions where Jamey or the Automa designer(s) have said "excellent question" or similar when clarifying rules.

If even the designers are saying certain questions are good, and providing rulings, then it seems reasonable that someone might wish to collect such clarifications. This being a community-driven site, anyone is welcome to do that themselves and forward them to Jamey as a helpful gesture.
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