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James Wahl
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Not something I thought of before. I wish more games with player elimination were at big gatherings, because those are the places where I'd actually be willing to try them out for the obvious reason that I could just find a new game after I got eliminated.

Would you be more willing? I'm considering bringing one to a meetup to see how it goes.
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Christopher Wionzek
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pharmakon wrote:
Not something I thought of before. I wish more games with player elimination were at big gatherings, because those are the places where I'd actually be willing to try them out for the obvious reason that I could just find a new game after I got eliminated.

Would you be more willing? I'm considering bringing one to a meetup to see how it goes.


Meetup not so much, but convention for sure. At a meetup everyone is probably already in a game, so you're still just the lone person wandering around.
 
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James Wahl
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Dragoonkin wrote:
pharmakon wrote:
Not something I thought of before. I wish more games with player elimination were at big gatherings, because those are the places where I'd actually be willing to try them out for the obvious reason that I could just find a new game after I got eliminated.

Would you be more willing? I'm considering bringing one to a meetup to see how it goes.


Meetup not so much, but convention for sure. At a meetup everyone is probably already in a game, so you're still just the lone person wandering around.


True. Maybe the answer is to have a few player elimination games rather than just one, and maybe a few 20 minute card games that just keep repeating to keep the churn going?

 
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Bryan Thunkd
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So player elimination is a mechanism that you'd only play if you know there's a large pool of players ready to start a game standing by at any given moment? Maybe that suggests that it's not such a great mechanism?

I mean if it requires a convention hall full of gamers to compensate for its shortcomings, that seems like a fairly damning critique. I'd rather play a game where I don't have to engineer outside factors to make the game work for me.
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Cris Whetstone
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pharmakon wrote:
Not something I thought of before. I wish more games with player elimination were at big gatherings, because those are the places where I'd actually be willing to try them out for the obvious reason that I could just find a new game after I got eliminated.

Would you be more willing? I'm considering bringing one to a meetup to see how it goes.


I'd say player elimination games should be played anywhere. I'm not sure why people can't just hang out and be social even if they are not playing unless they get so upset by losing that they can't face their victors. I know the predominant mind set is that they are bad games for some reason but maybe folks should relax. Artificially keeping people in a game can be torture.

That being said it sounds like cons are a great place for them. With the current popularity of Euros at meetups you would probably meet with resistance unless you have a core group of open minded and social players.
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Kevin C.
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I'd rather play a game where I don't have to engineer outside factors to make the game work for me.


But there really is no effort in engineering going on.

You play what you want to play when you want to play it and, lo and behold, you find yourself in a situation in which player elimination becomes acceptable to your taste and you give it a shot.

It would be effort if you were inviting people over or renting out big spaces to hold "Player Elimination for Bryan" days.

I don't think that is what the OP is saying at all. It is just in certain situations some games work better than others for him. I'd say that is a normal paradigm.

I don't think it is very different from things like, say, The Resistance or Werewolf. I won't play that under certain player counts. I don't "engineer" acceptable player counts...they just happen in certain situations and I take advantage.

I only play Slapshot once a year at the WBC with 200 other people. I would never play it anywhere else, as without that atmosphere, I don't enjoy it at all.

That isn't to say it is a "bad" game or has "shortcomings" that need to be overcome. It is only to say I enjoy it in that setting and my taste wants nothing to do with it otherwise.

I don't see this as any different.

Kevin

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"Sometimes, the dark side overcomes what Lincoln called the better angels of our nature"
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Elimination games are great. Either I win, yay. Or I can go home early and get to bed at a reasonable hour, yay.

The downside is coming in second, flawed.
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Bryan Thunkd
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natsean wrote:
Quote:
I'd rather play a game where I don't have to engineer outside factors to make the game work for me.


But there really is no effort in engineering going on.

You play what you want to play when you want to play it and, lo and behold, you find yourself in a situation in which player elimination becomes acceptable to your taste and you give it a shot.
I'll spend my money on games that I can play on a regular basis without needing to have a group waiting in the wings. You're free to do whatever you want.

I suspect that if the OP isn't okay getting knocked out of a game and just hanging out and watching the game unfold, then he's probably better off focusing on other types of games. I personally think long games with player elimination are flawed, as knocked out players inherently have less interest in the game afterwards, and there's not much to do but wait for the next game.

And yes, while playing at a convention would "fix" this, by allowing you to jump ship to a different game, I don't think a solution where the fix to a game is abandoning it and starting something else is particularly good. If I start a game with a group, I'd prefer to be there at the finish... but I also wouldn't enjoy sitting out and watching if after being eliminated. Given that combination it makes sense for me to avoid player elimination games. I was thinking the OP was in the same situation, but maybe not.
 
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
I'll spend my money on games that I can play on a regular basis without needing to have a group waiting in the wings. You're free to do whatever you want.


Who is talking about "spending"? This is about the opportunity to jump into a game, presumably someone else's, when it is in the offing at a con or meetup.

Quote:
I suspect that if the OP isn't okay getting knocked out of a game and just hanging out and watching the game unfold, then he's probably better off focusing on other types of games.


I think you are reading too much into this. Who is talking about "focusing"? You dip your feet in when the opportunity presents itself, get some jollies and move on.

I think it is awesome that the OP could get enjoyment out of a game he wouldn't normally play with his home group by playing it at a con or meetup. It's a novel situation that will give him pleasure.

I think you are viewing this as something with much more gravity than it is. He would "try them out" if he could just move on when they are done.

This doesn't involve a huge investment in either time or money, nor does it signal some paradigm shift in taste. It's a whim to be indulged in a specific situation, nothing more.

I guess I see it as an opportunity for the OP to try something "new" he might normally avoid.

Quote:
If I start a game with a group, I'd prefer to be there at the finish... but I also wouldn't enjoy sitting out and watching if after being eliminated. Given that combination it makes sense for me to avoid player elimination games.


Sounds great for you, but cons allow you to just excuse yourself and move on. I've played tons of games in open gaming, and even tournaments, in which I was eliminated and just left. If the table isn't fine with it, I stay, but cons are pretty fluid like this.

Usually people have another game to get to or can jump into something else, so being "held" at the table doesn't happen as much as it does at a home group.

Plus, you aren't "abandoning" anything but the social convention to stay until the end, which is a preference the group sets. Your part in the actual game is done and you no longer have any gamestate role. Your role is purely a social one, the import of which, as I said, is determined by the group.

I like long player elimination games because there is a meta-game pressure to play well so I'm not sitting with my thumb up my ass for three hours. It's like gambling with my time with a real consequence if I lose.

Conventions mitigate this because I can just find something else interesting to do.

I guess we just differ on player elimination. I like it a lot and will play it in various situations.

Kevin


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Russ Williams
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Thunkd wrote:
So player elimination is a mechanism that you'd only play if you know there's a large pool of players ready to start a game standing by at any given moment? Maybe that suggests that it's not such a great mechanism?

That's jumping to an unjustified conclusion. More likely explanation: it suggests that different people have different preferences.

If somebody on the internet being willing to play a given type of game mechanism only in certain circumstances "suggests that it's not such a great mechanism", then (by the same reasoning) ALL game mechanisms are not so great.

Quote:
I'd rather play a game where I don't have to engineer outside factors to make the game work for me.

I (and many other people) have enjoyed many games with player elimination with no need to "engineer outside factors" to enjoy them. YMMV, but that doesn't mean the mechanism itself is somehow inherently bad.
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James Wahl
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Thunkd wrote:
So player elimination is a mechanism that you'd only play if you know there's a large pool of players ready to start a game standing by at any given moment? Maybe that suggests that it's not such a great mechanism?


Yes, you understand what I typed. Player elimination is bad (for me) in small groups, because after a player gets eliminated, they have nothing to do.

Thunkd wrote:
I mean if it requires a convention hall full of gamers to compensate for its shortcomings, that seems like a fairly damning critique. I'd rather play a game where I don't have to engineer outside factors to make the game work for me.


Unless you're visiting a convention hall full of gamers? That's like condemning a boat for not having wheels.
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