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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Why does the designer credit keep getting changed? rss

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Paul B.
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The box says "Design by Nikki Valens". It does not say "Design by Nikki Valens and Corey Konieczka". Why does it keep getting changed? There is no ambiguity here. She designed the game she should get the solo credit.
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Baker Odom
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While I understand what you're saying I think Koniezcka deserves to have credit on BGG for laying the solid foundation (and much of the structure) found in the second edition. They do this on the box by clearly distinguishing it as being based on his design. I don't believe BGG has any option for that in their credits so instead his name gets popped in as a designer of this one.

Nikki Valens has done a fantastic job with the second edition and it has easily surpassed my love for the first edition. However, she didn't design this from the ground up.
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Soylent Green
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thebaker1983 wrote:
While I understand what you're saying I think Koniezcka deserves to have credit on BGG for laying the solid foundation (and much of the structure) found in the second edition.


Sure - I get that... but that isn't something that gets done in publishing or design.

FFG didn't put him as the co-designer on the box - BGG shouldn't either.
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Baker Odom
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SoylentRed wrote:
thebaker1983 wrote:
While I understand what you're saying I think Koniezcka deserves to have credit on BGG for laying the solid foundation (and much of the structure) found in the second edition.


Sure - I get that... but that isn't something that gets done in publishing or design.

FFG didn't put him as the co-designer on the box - BGG shouldn't either.


To put it into context Descent 2nd Edition was not designed by Kevin Wilson. The box clearly states "Inspired by First Edition by Kevin Wilson." However, on the BGG page Kevin Wilson is given a designer credit right next to the 3 actual designers. This is just how BGG handles making sure the original designers of a first edition of a game are given credit for what they did in the second edition.

I look at it like this...imagine Joe Smith works on a game for several years but never publishes it and eventually stops working on it and sets it aside. Later on I come along, see his design, pick up where he left off, change some things, keep some things, and eventually take it to the finish line and get it published. I would absolutely want Joe Smith to get his due credit there.

Obviously that's a slightly different situation but I do think there's enough similarities. Nikki Valens took an already existing design and built on top of it. Alot of it got replaced entirely, much of the original design remains.
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Chris
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SoylentRed wrote:
FFG didn't put him as the co-designer on the box - BGG shouldn't either.

I agree and had a similar argument with BGG Admins regarding Betrayal at House on the Hill. There is only one designer on the cover for that game: Bruce Glassco, and only one designer given in the credits for the revised edition: Bruce Glassco. The other names in the BGG entry were listed as "developers", and only for the first edition.

As you can see from the unchanged BGG entry, I lost that argument.
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Chris
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thebaker1983 wrote:
Nikki Valens took an already existing design and built on top of it. Alot of it got replaced entirely, much of the original design remains.

That is already handled by having the "reimplements" link in the game entry and "Second Edition" in the game title. If you want to know who designed the first edition, it is simple to find out. Listing legacy designers in game entries is poor practice. If they had no direct involvement in the revised edition then they should not be listed in the game entry.
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Jo Shmo
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Agreed. Poor form of BGG.
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Paul B.
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thebaker1983 wrote:
They do this on the box by clearly distinguishing it as being based on his design. I don't believe BGG has any option for that in their credits so instead his name gets popped in as a designer of this one.


While I understand your argument this is a bit like saying "Well, we do not have a credit for editor so lets just pop him in there as the co-author". These two games are very different and I think if the intention was for Corey to be listed as a designer he would have been.

The argument of listing people that designed games that inspired other games as designers on a game is a flawed argument. Does Thunderstone list Donald X. Vaccarino as a designer? Do any of the many games that are close re-implementations of other games list the designer of the original game as a designer? They do not.

How I am thinking of it is that if this were coming from a different company people would not be saying that Corey should get a design credit.
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Jim P.
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The publisher is the ultimate one who decides (other than forum content) what will be on a game page. Not to diminish Nikki V. in any way, Corey would not be listed as well unless FFG thought he should be.

And the very large majority of us are not at all familiar with what goes on in the offices at FFG.
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Chris
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InvisibleRobots wrote:
The publisher is the ultimate one who decides (other than forum content) what will be on a game page.

No, they do not. The information on the game pages is populated by users. If a publisher disagrees with something they can certainly submit a request to BGG to change it, but they do not (generally) submit the entries themselves.
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Soylent Green
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I just think in this case - we should just let the designer be the designer.

Nikki Valens got the credit from FFG - shouldn't that be reason enough to make it the same here? The actual publisher of the game decided that she should be the sole designer... they chose not to have Corey listed there for whatever reason. Would be more accurate here to show it the same.

We have the re-implements link if people want to look at the history.
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Jan Probst
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Needs about 5 more decks to be a proper Corey design. heart
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Dustin Crenshaw
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Watching FFG's in flight report, it was his idea for 2nd edition. I'm sure he had a big hand in it.
 
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Soylent Green
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SeerMagic wrote:
Watching FFG's in flight report, it was his idea for 2nd edition. I'm sure he had a big hand in it.


Sure - but FFG didn't credit him as the designer.
 
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SoylentRed wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
Watching FFG's in flight report, it was his idea for 2nd edition. I'm sure he had a big hand in it.


Sure - but FFG didn't credit him as the designer.


Shame on FFG then from the sounds of it.
 
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Johannes Benedikt
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SoylentRed wrote:
SeerMagic wrote:
Watching FFG's in flight report, it was his idea for 2nd edition. I'm sure he had a big hand in it.


Sure - but FFG didn't credit him as the designer.


from credits of the learn to play guide:
Second Edition Game Design:
Nikki Valens

First Edition Game Design:
Corey Konieczka

Scenario Design:
Kara Centell-Dunk and Andrew Fischer
Additional Content Development:
Glen Aro, Daniel Lovat Clark,
Nathan I. Hajek, Grace Holdinghaus, Robert Martens,
Becca Olene, Alexandar Ortloff, and Jonathan Ying
Editing and Proofreading:
Adam Baker and Molly Glover
Arkham Horror
Story Team:
Andy Christensen, Matthew Newman,
Katrina Ostrander, and Nikki Valens
Graphic Design:
WiL Springer with Evan Simonet, Shaun Boyke,
Christopher Hosch, and Ryan Thompson
Managing Graphic Designer:
Brian Schomburg
Cover Art:
Jacob Murray
Investigator Art:
Cristi Balanescu, Tony Foti, Jacob Murray,
and Magali Villeneuve
Map Tile Art:
Yoann Boissonnet
Additional Interior Art:
The artists of
Call of Cthulhu
LCG
and
Arkham Horror Files
products
Art Director:
Zoë Robinson
Managing Art Director:
Andy Christensen
Sculptor:
Cory DeVore
Plastics Design Coordinator:
Niklas Norman
Software Development:
Mark Jones, Paul Klecker, Francesco Moggia,
and Gary Storkamp
Digital Creative Director:
Andrew Navaro
Digital Executive Producer:
Keith Hurley
Production Management:
Jason Beaudoin and Megan Duehn
Executive Game Designer:
Corey Konieczka

Executive Producer:
Michael Hurley
Publisher:
Christian T. Petersen
Quality Assurance Coordinator:
Zach Tewalthomas
Playtesting:
Brad Andres, Audrey Bailey, Samuel W. Bailey,
Dane Beltrami, Chiara Bertulessi, Simone Biga, Ian Birdsall,
Forrest Bower, Joseph Bozarth, Nayt Brookes, Frank Brooks,
Chris Brown, John D. Curtis, John W. Curtis III, Kathleen Curtis,
Caterina D’Agostini, Andrea Dell’Agnese, Julia Faeta, Jason Glawe,
Branden Haines, Matt Holland, Alene Horner, Jason Horner,
Julien Horner, Evan Johnson, Justin Kemppainen, James Kniffen,
Matthew Landis, Mark Larson, Lukas Litzsinger, Andrea Marmiroli,
James Meier, Kathleen Miller, Heather Minke, Maegan Mohr,
Michelle McCarthy, Anton Torres, Janie True, Quentin True,
Jason Walden, Paul Winchester
Special thanks to all of our beta tester

so FFG actually lists Corey as executive game designer and that's why I think the BGG entry is fair.

To be honest I think Corey did tweak the design here and there and maybe did design a few mechanics, but I think Nikki came up with the central mechanics and maybe the way the app integrates with the game, maybe even the idea to use an app came from her. Since she is the lesser known designer, I can imagine that they sololy put her on the box, because she had the biggest impact in designing this game.
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Chris
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But... from all box art I've seen, it also says "Based on a design by Corey Konieczka" right on the front of the box as well. Even FFG put two designer names there.
 
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Paul B.
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DA_Maz wrote:
so FFG actually lists Corey as executive game designer and that's why I think the BGG entry is fair.


He is also listed as the Executive game designer in every single game FFG puts out (Like the Samurai for instance). It is a role in the company. It does not necessarily mean he did anything with the game directly. Essentially a Chief-of-whatever credit. Like how Christian T. Peterson gets a publisher credit on every game but there is no way with how busy he must be that he actually gets to go through and help make changes on every single game the company puts out.
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Casey Botkin
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I wonder what Corey and Nikki think of this thread if they have seen it. I hope they are getting a kick out of it.
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