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Subject: 1830, Indonesia, what's next? rss

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Not including games in the same 'family' are there any others that could be seen to offer some of the same things as 1830 and Indonesia - high interactivity, reasonably simple rulesets for their depth, and novel gameplay - that I've not yet discovered?
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Eric Tama
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Planet Steam and Food Chain Magnate.
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Eric_Tama wrote:
Planet Steam and Food Chain Magnate.


Hmm, will have to take another look at Planet Steam. FCM I'm not really interested in, I don't think it is anywhere near as simple a game. I don't want a deep game system, just deep game play. FCM looks to have too much overhead to reach that depth via the complexity of game systems and required knowledge of its parts.
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Adam Brocker
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lamaros wrote:
Not including games in the same 'family' are there any others that could be seen to offer some of the same things as 1830 and Indonesia - high interactivity, reasonably simple rulesets for their depth, and novel gameplay - that I've not yet discovered?


I think Splotters are most well known for this. I see you mentioned not wanting to try FCM, but I would say that it has a fairly light ruleset for the depth it provides. Roads and Boats offers a clean ruleset, but it may not be as interactive as you'd like.

I can't really think of another. Other 18xx ganes benefit from not needing to learn a new ruleset, but as you said you'd prefer other options.

There are games that offer a clean ruleset, but nothing really offers the depth that an 18xx has.

St Petersburg is one that offers a good amount of depth and interaction for the ruleset.

Brass and through the ages have moderately compex rulesets but also have an amazing amount of depth and interactivity.
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Adam Brocker
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Another to consider is Age of Steam. I didn't recommend it at first, as I'm not a big fan, but the ruleset is reasonable and it does have high interaction and depth. It also has a ton of maps for variability.

I'd also recommend checking out other Winsome Games as those also offer high interaction and depth with a reduced complexity rule set.
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abrocker wrote:
lamaros wrote:
Not including games in the same 'family' are there any others that could be seen to offer some of the same things as 1830 and Indonesia - high interactivity, reasonably simple rulesets for their depth, and novel gameplay - that I've not yet discovered?


I think Splotters are most well known for this. I see you mentioned not wanting to try FCM, but I would say that it has a fairly light ruleset for the depth it provides. Roads and Boats offers a clean ruleset, but it may not be as interactive as you'd like.

I can't really think of another. Other 18xx ganes benefit from not needing to learn a new ruleset, but as you said you'd prefer other options.

There are games that offer a clean ruleset, but nothing really offers the depth that an 18xx has.

St Petersburg is one that offers a good amount of depth and interaction for the ruleset.

Brass and through the ages have moderately compex rulesets but also have an amazing amount of depth and interactivity.


I get where you're coming from, perhaps I was a bit incorrect when I described it as "simple ruleset". What 1830 and Indonesia have, for me, is fairly simple rulesets, but also fairly transparent components that don't further extend the complexity of the game. The rail pieces and private powers in 1830 are the only pieces that you really need to learn outside the basics of the rules and board.

Alternatively, FCM has a lot more parts that have implications which you need to learn and remember to really get into the depth of the system. Effectively these components greatly extend the complexity of the system.

Indonesia isn't like this at all. Different companies don't have different powers from others of that type, players don't get unique upgrades, powers or bonuses, there are no events or other elements that other games have.
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abrocker wrote:
Another to consider is Age of Steam. I didn't recommend it at first, as I'm not a big fan, but the ruleset is reasonable and it does have high interaction and depth. It also has a ton of maps for variability.

I'd also recommend checking out other Winsome Games as those also offer high interaction and depth with a reduced complexity rule set.


Age of Steam would be a likely contender. I've played it already though! I'm also not the biggest fan, not because it's not like as I've requested, but because I feel that it's a clunky system of parts, rather than a unified singular experience.
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Dave Eisen
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Container
Any of a number of Winsome Games games. Chicago Express is probably a fine example.
The Great Zimbabwe
Kaivai (first edition)
Neuland (first edition)
Imperial
Ponzi Scheme
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dkeisen wrote:
Container
Any of a number of Winsome Games games. Chicago Express is probably a fine example.
The Great Zimbabwe
Kaivai
Neuland (first edition)
Imperial
Ponzi Scheme


Thanks for the suggestions.

I would say that Ponzi Scheme doesn't really have the depth, novelty or interactivity to fit in this regard (though I enjoy it). Chicago Express fits, given its playtime, though it does become a bit more patterned and that shallows the depth?

Container and Imperial have been on my radar for a fair while, hopefully I get the chance to play them. Don't know as much about the others, will check them out.
 
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Dave Eisen
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lamaros wrote:
dkeisen wrote:
Container
Any of a number of Winsome Games games. Chicago Express is probably a fine example.
The Great Zimbabwe
Kaivai
Neuland (first edition)
Imperial
Ponzi Scheme


Thanks for the suggestions.

I would say that Ponzi Scheme doesn't really have the depth, novelty or interactivity to fit in this regard (though I enjoy it). Chicago Express fits, given its playtime, though it does become a bit more patterned and that shallows the depth?


I disagree about novelty and interactivity re: Ponzi Scheme, although you might have a case re: depth. Still seems very interesting to me.

As far as Wabash Cannonball, I do find that it gets patterned. But people who have played way more often than I have and have thought about it a great deal inform me that that's only because I'm missing much of the point. I'm inclined to believe them.
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Adam Brocker
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dkeisen wrote:
lamaros wrote:
dkeisen wrote:
Container
Any of a number of Winsome Games games. Chicago Express is probably a fine example.
The Great Zimbabwe
Kaivai
Neuland (first edition)
Imperial
Ponzi Scheme


Thanks for the suggestions.

I would say that Ponzi Scheme doesn't really have the depth, novelty or interactivity to fit in this regard (though I enjoy it). Chicago Express fits, given its playtime, though it does become a bit more patterned and that shallows the depth?


I disagree about novelty and interactivity re: Ponzi Scheme, although you might have a case re: depth. Still seems very interesting to me.

As far as Wabash Cannonball, I do find that it gets patterned. But people who have played way more often than I have and have thought about it a great deal inform me that that's only because I'm missing much of the point. I'm inclined to believe them.


American Rails is another to take a look at. It's design was based on Chicago Express, but the development of the companies are more dynamic as there are not fixed starting locations. It has a very simple ruleset (no major differences between companies) and a good amount of depth. It can get a little mathy in the last couple rounds though.
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Peter Bowie
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Makes me excited for my pre-order for Indonesia! Sounds exactly like the kind of game I like.

My suggestion would be Tigris & Euphrates. It's a little lighter, but an absolutely smashing game - unique mechanisms, highly interactive.

Regards Food Chain Magnate; you want a game where you can get a feeling for the strategy from the rules? Whereas a lot of Food Chain Magnate's "rules" are on the cards themselves. It's definitely an unexpectedly simple game for how deep it is, but I can understand your point of view.
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Yeah, I want a game where half of the skill isnt knowing all the cards first, but is instead in working out the implications of a more readily transparent system.

Sometimes those things are fine and have a place (I enjoy the thematic expression the variety in cards gives WotR, despite this) but I'm not looking for it in this type of game.
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Angel Carrete
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+1 on Planet Steam
Maybe ZhanGuo. I would think that ZhanGuo is lighter than Indonesia and 1830 (I haven't had a chance to play either )but it should fit the bill. Your turn basically consists in playing a card or using it to build your tableau, yet it has a lot of depth with a tactical approach. Especially for the 2 - 2.5 hr play time.
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dkeisen wrote:
lamaros wrote:
dkeisen wrote:
Container
Any of a number of Winsome Games games. Chicago Express is probably a fine example.
The Great Zimbabwe
Kaivai
Neuland (first edition)
Imperial
Ponzi Scheme


Thanks for the suggestions.

I would say that Ponzi Scheme doesn't really have the depth, novelty or interactivity to fit in this regard (though I enjoy it). Chicago Express fits, given its playtime, though it does become a bit more patterned and that shallows the depth?


I disagree about novelty and interactivity re: Ponzi Scheme, although you might have a case re: depth. Still seems very interesting to me.

As far as Wabash Cannonball, I do find that it gets patterned. But people who have played way more often than I have and have thought about it a great deal inform me that that's only because I'm missing much of the point. I'm inclined to believe them.


Chicago Express/Wabash Cannonball can be very prone to group think. This will lead to patterned play and thus shallow the depth.
So you should play with different groups; however if (even relatively) experienced players play with new player(s), then (one of) the new player(s) will almost certainly hand the win to one of the other players (without realizing they have done so). The solution at this point is to get the new players to play more.
Excellent game for 3-4 players.
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Jeff Rietveld
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lamaros wrote:
Not including games in the same 'family' are there any others that could be seen to offer some of the same things as 1830 and Indonesia - high interactivity, reasonably simple rulesets for their depth, and novel gameplay - that I've not yet discovered?

Take a look at B&O, it's not an 18xx.
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lamaros wrote:
Not including games in the same 'family' are there any others that could be seen to offer some of the same things as 1830 and Indonesia - high interactivity, reasonably simple rulesets for their depth, and novel gameplay - that I've not yet discovered?


Martin Wallace has a few good designs that fit your critera.
Brass
Brass is all about interacting with your opponents. You need them to do certain things, so that you can do what you want to do. It has a fairly straight forward rule set, but provides very deep gameplay with a good level of replayability.

Automobile
I cannot speak to the reworked version of this game called Ships, but Automobile is deep. It's biggest flaw is with most of Martin Wallace's games, ignore the lower limit of the suggest players. It is best with 5 but good with 4. Brass is like that too, best with 4, but good with 3.

I would suggest Container, but it is OOP and expensive.

I think you would find Chicago Express to be a little wanting after playing 1830.

I am about to try Arkwright, but it might be a little high on the rules end of the scale. It looks fantastic, the rules are not tough, but there certainly is allot going on.
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Dave Eisen
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Rolling Stock often gets discussed with 18xx and is in fact published by All-Aboard Games, an 18xx publisher, but is very much not an 18xx game. Rules overhead is light enough that the rules fit on 4 typed pages. Very procedural as each turn has 10 phases conducted in a specific order, but each one is very easy to understand from a rules perspective.
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Rebecca Carpenter
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Just came here to +1 everything Dave Eisen has said - he's spot on.

Ponzi Scheme has lots of levers, but they are opaque and require the right players to pull from the stone and wield, like so many other games of it's ilk.
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Dave Eisen
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As long as I'm channeling JC, I might as well include another of our joint favorites: Quo Vadis?. I know that not everyone is into negotiation games but this fits the mold of the other games I proposed: very interesting, as long as you can assume that everyone else at the table knows what he or she is doing. Very simple from a rules perspective.
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lamaros wrote:
FCM looks to have too much overhead to reach that depth via the complexity of game systems and required knowledge of its parts.


This is wrong. FCM is highly procedural and therefore highly intuitive after 2 games. The milestones are also counter-intuitive at first, but intuitive after a few games.
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Mabuchi wrote:
lamaros wrote:
Not including games in the same 'family' are there any others that could be seen to offer some of the same things as 1830 and Indonesia - high interactivity, reasonably simple rulesets for their depth, and novel gameplay - that I've not yet discovered?


Martin Wallace has a few good designs that fit your critera.
Brass
Brass is all about interacting with your opponents. You need them to do certain things, so that you can do what you want to do. It has a fairly straight forward rule set, but provides very deep gameplay with a good level of replayability.

Automobile
I cannot speak to the reworked version of this game called Ships, but Automobile is deep. It's biggest flaw is with most of Martin Wallace's games, ignore the lower limit of the suggest players. It is best with 5 but good with 4. Brass is like that too, best with 4, but good with 3.

I would suggest Container, but it is OOP and expensive.

I think you would find Chicago Express to be a little wanting after playing 1830.

I am about to try Arkwright, but it might be a little high on the rules end of the scale. It looks fantastic, the rules are not tough, but there certainly is allot going on.


Arkwright is ok, though I found the system wasn't really novel enough (the nature of the decisions the system engendered weren't novel), and didn't generate enough interesting decisions against its playtime (too much waiting around compared to thinking).

Fun to play, but not something distinct enough to choose above others.

I've not played the Wallace Brass/AoI and Automobile/Ships games, maybe i'll get the chance sometime.
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grammatoncleric wrote:
lamaros wrote:
FCM looks to have too much overhead to reach that depth via the complexity of game systems and required knowledge of its parts.


This is wrong. FCM is highly procedural and therefore highly intuitive after 2 games. The milestones are also counter-intuitive at first, but intuitive after a few games.


I appreciate the comment, but I'm not saying that FCM isn't easy to follow as a system, a great many games fall in to this category, but nonetheless don't have the qualities I appreciate in 1830 and Indonesia. I'm very confident that its not the type of game I'm looking for.
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dkeisen wrote:
As long as I'm channeling JC, I might as well include another of our joint favorites: Quo Vadis?. I know that not everyone is into negotiation games but this fits the mold of the other games I proposed: very interesting, as long as you can assume that everyone else at the table knows what he or she is doing. Very simple from a rules perspective.


I've wanted to try both this and Rolling Stock for a while (I cooled heavily on Rolling Stock, not sure why now though). I will renew my efforts to find a way to do so.
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dkeisen wrote:
Container
Any of a number of Winsome Games games. Chicago Express is probably a fine example.
The Great Zimbabwe
Kaivai (first edition)
Neuland (first edition)
Imperial
Ponzi Scheme


There are files on bgg that let you play first edition Neuland with a second edition copy. also I read on bgg container is getting a reprint.
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