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Runebound (Third Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: How to integrate expansion? DOnt understand rss

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Christopher James
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It says add D cards and they can be selected? What does this mean? Do I shuffle these cards in with the other generic cards or what?

Also what the heck is the power of profit??
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Donny Behne
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When starting a game, you pick three item decks. This can be one of your three which means you'll leave out A, B, or C. You never pick in the base game because there's only three.
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Chris
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Yeah, I hadn't realized that "Asset" and "Skill" sets were even a thing until I got the expansions, but right there in the base game rulebook it says you have to do this. Until the expansions came along, it wasn't necessary since there were only 3 and 6 sets respectively in the base game.

Between the A,B,C,and D asset sets you have to pick only 3 to play a game with and those three will form your asset deck.

Pick 6 of the 7 themed Skill decks (grouped by the icon at the bottom of the cards) to form your game's Skill deck.

Power of Profit is just the name for the newly added Skill set deck.
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Dustin Crenshaw
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Marlowespade wrote:
Yeah, I hadn't realized that "Asset" and "Skill" sets were even a thing until I got the expansions, but right there in the base game rulebook it says you have to do this. Until the expansions came along, it wasn't necessary since there were only 3 and 6 sets respectively in the base game.

Between the A,B,C,and D asset sets you have to pick only 3 to play a game with and those three will form your asset deck.

Pick 6 of the 7 themed Skill decks (grouped by the icon at the bottom of the cards) to form your game's Skill deck.

Power of Profit is just the name for the newly added Skill set deck.



Ug, that's sounds awful. I'm just gonna shuffle all my stuff together.
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Mike B
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I initially thought of doing that however. The issue you'll have with that is that your decks will now be unbalanced as the expansion is a complete replacement deck of one skill type rather than a mix of them.

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The Rake
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Wow, I can't believe I completely missed this in the rule book. I was just planning to mix everything together. Now I need to figure out how to keep all of the decks separated which does seem like a pain, especially once there are a lot of expansions released.

I wonder how this will affect games? What if I choose a poor deck that doesn't work well with a particular villain?

I wonder just how unbalanced things would be if everything just got mixed together?
 
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Jon W
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Maybe just keep all the decks in their sorted piles, randomly pick the 3/6 piles you're using, then roll a die for each draw.

There's a little extra fuss no matter what, but this way keeps setup/teardown simpler.
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Ken Marley
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SeerMagic wrote:
Marlowespade wrote:
Yeah, I hadn't realized that "Asset" and "Skill" sets were even a thing until I got the expansions, but right there in the base game rulebook it says you have to do this. Until the expansions came along, it wasn't necessary since there were only 3 and 6 sets respectively in the base game.

Between the A,B,C,and D asset sets you have to pick only 3 to play a game with and those three will form your asset deck.

Pick 6 of the 7 themed Skill decks (grouped by the icon at the bottom of the cards) to form your game's Skill deck.

Power of Profit is just the name for the newly added Skill set deck.



Ug, that's sounds awful. I'm just gonna shuffle all my stuff together.


For the Asset Deck this would probably be ok. You might get a weird distribution of cards sometimes, but it shouldn't be to bad.

But do not do this for the skill deck. In fact as the Rules in the expansion make plain. You must have two might Skill sets, 2 Mind skill sets, and 2 Spirit skill sets. Since the new skill set is a Yellow skill set you can only replace one of the other Yellow skill sets.

If you mixed all skill sets, you would have 20 red skills, 30 yellow skills, and 20 blue skills. This is clearly unbalanced.

The Mountains Rise will add another Blue skill set. Making it 20 red, 30 yellow, and 30 blue skills.

Hopefully there will be another Adventure Pack that includes a red skill set. If you have all three expansions, then you could make a 90 card skill deck, and everything would be fine.

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David desJardins
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youperguy wrote:
If you mixed all skill sets, you would have 20 red skills, 30 yellow skills, and 20 blue skills. This is clearly unbalanced.


That seems pretty minor and trivial, to me. I don't mind sorting the cards, not that hard, but if it's going to make other people not enjoy the game then they should feel free to play the way they like better.
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The Rake
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youperguy wrote:
If you mixed all skill sets, you would have 20 red skills, 30 yellow skills, and 20 blue skills. This is clearly unbalanced.

The Mountains Rise will add another Blue skill set. Making it 20 red, 30 yellow, and 30 blue skills.

Hopefully there will be another Adventure Pack that includes a red skill set. If you have all three expansions, then you could make a 90 card skill deck, and everything would be fine.


I hope in the future they try to release three Adventure Packs (one with each color) all around the same time so they can just be thrown together. A month or two apart wouldn't be a big deal but waiting another year would be annoying for me.
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Dan Harrow
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DaviddesJ wrote:
youperguy wrote:
If you mixed all skill sets, you would have 20 red skills, 30 yellow skills, and 20 blue skills. This is clearly unbalanced.


That seems pretty minor and trivial, to me. I don't mind sorting the cards, not that hard, but if it's going to make other people not enjoy the game then they should feel free to play the way they like better.

Less trivial is that adding a 7th skill deck will also unbalance the ratio of successes, reducing the chances of a player being successful when testing attributes.

EDIT: Misworded. There is still a 40% probability of drawing a success, but with a larger population size when shuffling physical cards, you have more of an opportunity for the successes to "clump", potentially leaving longer periods of times when successes may or may not be drawn consecutively.
 
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Ken Marley
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DaviddesJ wrote:
youperguy wrote:
If you mixed all skill sets, you would have 20 red skills, 30 yellow skills, and 20 blue skills. This is clearly unbalanced.


That seems pretty minor and trivial, to me. I don't mind sorting the cards, not that hard, but if it's going to make other people not enjoy the game then they should feel free to play the way they like better.


Sure people should play how they like, as long as everyone is aware of the imbalance. Personally it would bug me, if I had a red based hero, and there were less red skill cards, but nobody bothered to tell me this fact.

I agree that releasing a new Adventure pack with Red skill set soon would help.

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Ken Marley
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XeyneGaming wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
youperguy wrote:
If you mixed all skill sets, you would have 20 red skills, 30 yellow skills, and 20 blue skills. This is clearly unbalanced.


That seems pretty minor and trivial, to me. I don't mind sorting the cards, not that hard, but if it's going to make other people not enjoy the game then they should feel free to play the way they like better.

Less trivial is that adding a 7th skill deck will also unbalance the ratio of successes, reducing the chances of a player being successful when testing attributes.


Each skill set has 10 cards with 4 success symbols. The ratio of successes won't change if you add a set.
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David desJardins
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XeyneGaming wrote:
Less trivial is that adding a 7th skill deck will also unbalance the ratio of successes, reducing the chances of a player being successful when testing attributes.


Why? Surely each set of 10 must have 4 success symbols.
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Dan Harrow
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youperguy wrote:
XeyneGaming wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:

That seems pretty minor and trivial, to me. I don't mind sorting the cards, not that hard, but if it's going to make other people not enjoy the game then they should feel free to play the way they like better.

Less trivial is that adding a 7th skill deck will also unbalance the ratio of successes, reducing the chances of a player being successful when testing attributes.


Each skill set has 10 cards with 4 success symbols. The ratio of successes won't change if you add a set.

Certainly the probability of drawing a success doesn't change, but that doesn't account for the result of a deck whose shuffle can potentially produce larger "chunks" of successes or non-successes.
 
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Ken Marley
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XeyneGaming wrote:
youperguy wrote:
XeyneGaming wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:

That seems pretty minor and trivial, to me. I don't mind sorting the cards, not that hard, but if it's going to make other people not enjoy the game then they should feel free to play the way they like better.

Less trivial is that adding a 7th skill deck will also unbalance the ratio of successes, reducing the chances of a player being successful when testing attributes.


Each skill set has 10 cards with 4 success symbols. The ratio of successes won't change if you add a set.

Certainly the probability of drawing a success doesn't change, but that doesn't account for the result of a deck whose shuffle can potentially produce larger "chunks" of successes or non-successes.


Yes, this is fair.
 
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Christopher
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I understand why we should separate the skill decks, but what's the rationale behind separating the asset decks? If 3 of the 4 can be selected in any combination, why not just select 4 of the 4?
 
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SpoDaddy wrote:
I understand why we should separate the skill decks, but what's the rationale behind separating the asset decks? If 3 of the 4 can be selected in any combination, why not just select 4 of the 4?


Because you skew the distribution of cards. Some decks may have more expensive assets in the deck and this means they come also with cards allowing you to generate gold at a higher pace. The thicker the deck, the easier it is to have situations where you have markets clogged with items you can't afford, or items flooded with cheap items when you need something stronger to go for the final boss. Since there's no flush option for the markets, if you increase the number of cards in the asset deck too much, the game can suffer from these issues, and cycling through an 80-card deck can be a problem
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David desJardins
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In a 60 card deck with 24 successes, the chance of getting at least one success in 3 cards is 79.14%.

In a 80 card deck with 32 successes, the chance of getting at least one success in 3 cards is 78.95%.

The difference exists, but it seems pretty trivial.
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Christopher
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
SpoDaddy wrote:
I understand why we should separate the skill decks, but what's the rationale behind separating the asset decks? If 3 of the 4 can be selected in any combination, why not just select 4 of the 4?


Because you skew the distribution of cards. Some decks may have more expensive assets in the deck and this means they come also with cards allowing you to generate gold at a higher pace. The thicker the deck, the easier it is to have situations where you have markets clogged with items you can't afford, or items flooded with cheap items when you need something stronger to go for the final boss. Since there's no flush option for the markets, if you increase the number of cards in the asset deck too much, the game can suffer from these issues, and cycling through an 80-card deck can be a problem


That's interesting. I'd love to see a statistical breakdown of the average item cost in each deck vs the average gold generation in each deck. Anyone feeling mathy?
 
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Greg
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SpoDaddy wrote:
Scarlet Witch wrote:
SpoDaddy wrote:
I understand why we should separate the skill decks, but what's the rationale behind separating the asset decks? If 3 of the 4 can be selected in any combination, why not just select 4 of the 4?


Because you skew the distribution of cards. Some decks may have more expensive assets in the deck and this means they come also with cards allowing you to generate gold at a higher pace. The thicker the deck, the easier it is to have situations where you have markets clogged with items you can't afford, or items flooded with cheap items when you need something stronger to go for the final boss. Since there's no flush option for the markets, if you increase the number of cards in the asset deck too much, the game can suffer from these issues, and cycling through an 80-card deck can be a problem


That's interesting. I'd love to see a statistical breakdown of the average item cost in each deck vs the average gold generation in each deck. Anyone feeling mathy?


By Gold generation are we talking about "Goods"? By far the most gold generation seems to come from Adventures which have nothing to do with the Asset decks really. The only gold generation in the asset decks are Goods, netting 2 or 3 gold apiece, which is the same as most Combat Adventures. So I don't see much validity in the argument.
 
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Enon Sci
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Phate999 wrote:


By Gold generation are we talking about "Goods"? By far the most gold generation seems to come from Adventures which have nothing to do with the Asset decks really. The only gold generation in the asset decks are Goods, netting 2 or 3 gold apiece, which is the same as most Combat Adventures. So I don't see much validity in the argument.


Additionally, several adventures tell you to dig through the asset deck until you reveal a good, etc, so mechanisms exist for them to still come into play.

One thing I adored about 2e Runebound (one of the few) were the huge stacks of items, and the unexpected variety they introduced to each session. Perhaps if this were a eurogame I'd be more concerned about balance, but I play Runebound as an adventure (winning isn't really important).
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Greg
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Phate999 wrote:


By Gold generation are we talking about "Goods"? By far the most gold generation seems to come from Adventures which have nothing to do with the Asset decks really. The only gold generation in the asset decks are Goods, netting 2 or 3 gold apiece, which is the same as most Combat Adventures. So I don't see much validity in the argument.


Additionally, several adventures tell you to dig through the asset deck until you reveal a good, etc, so mechanisms exist for them to still come into play.

One thing I adored about 2e Runebound (one of the few) were the huge stacks of items, and the unexpected variety they introduced to each session. Perhaps if this were a eurogame I'd be more concerned about balance, but I play Runebound as an adventure (winning isn't really important).


Also My guess would be that if they are giving you free choice to pick any 3 sets to use in a game session, then all the sets are balanced already, gold generation-and-cost-wise.
 
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Enon Sci
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Phate999 wrote:


Also My guess would be that if they are giving you free choice to pick any 3 sets to use in a game session, then all the sets are balanced already, gold generation-and-cost-wise.




But the asset deck isn't a primary generator of income anyway (secondary at best, through Goods, right?). It seems irrelevant whether Goods came out at the same frequency or not, unless I'm missing something.
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Greg
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Phate999 wrote:


Also My guess would be that if they are giving you free choice to pick any 3 sets to use in a game session, then all the sets are balanced already, gold generation-and-cost-wise.




But the asset deck isn't a primary generator of income anyway (secondary at best, through Goods, right?). It seems irrelevant whether Goods came out at the same frequency or not, unless I'm missing something.


Yeah I agree. But the extremely symmetrical design of this game seems to suggest that each additional asset pack will be balanced either way. For instance, the same amount of high, mid, and low cost cards as all the other sets.
 
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