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Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: Always the wrong number rss

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Mikael Svensson
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FFG makes great games, no question about that, but....

LOTR LCG, which we play alot, only permits 4 players.
This will be the same.

My group also play Rpgs together. We are 5 players and one GM. Wouldn't it be nice if we also could play an LCG of the same theme as our rpg at the moment? Yes, it would. But no. 4 players in this, 5 in Mansions of Madness, 4 in LOTR. Oh, and in Imperial assault it is 5 too.

Looks like we are locked in to play Eldritch Horror now and forever
 
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Mario
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Buy 3 copies and play it 6 player, who is stopping you?
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Jim Parkin
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You got drama all over my meeples!
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MerryHo wrote:
Buy 3 copies and play it 6 player, who is stopping you?

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Łukasz Małecki
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MerryHo wrote:
Buy 3 copies and play it 6 player, who is stopping you?


5 heroes in the base box? (Hopefully expansions will bring more.)
 
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Mario
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rednar wrote:
MerryHo wrote:
Buy 3 copies and play it 6 player, who is stopping you?


5 heroes in the base box? (Hopefully expansions will bring more.)


FFG says that the Mythos packs will bring in more investigators.
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David Boeren
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Should have at least one new Investigator within the first couple packs. Netrunner averages a new Identity every other pack, and LotR does one per pack.
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ParisianDreams
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Yeah, you will just need to wait a bit longer for another investigator to come out with the mythos decks. Plus buy more core decks. If each person buys their own core deck, it should be fine. Granted, more expensive since you all have to buy the core game, but you can all play it together.

If Android Netrunner is anything to judge from, it should not take long to get more mythos/investigators.
 
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Mikael Svensson
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It is not a question about having enough cards. That is just money. The issue is how the games are designed. After having tried to balance LoTR to play with 5 and 6 players we gave up since the design itself does not really permit such changes.

I would like these games to accomodate more players. Incorporated into the original design. Eldritch Horror does this wonderfully, it can be done with LCG too. Or is the problem perhaps that we have a larger steady gaminggroup than is the norm?
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Slamin Perfect
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As you've noticed the number of games available that support six dwindles quite a bit from those that support four. I suppose there are many reasons for it not the least of which is player downtime. If they felt they could design a good experience with six easily then I don't know what downside it would have so I'll leave it to the designers to decide.

In this particular situation I'd play two groups of three. Rotate players to spend more time with each. Compete between the groups if you like.
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David Boeren
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Some kinds of games work well with lots of players, others do not. If you've got 6+ people the natural fits for that tend to be RPGs and party games. Some boardgames will do 6, most will not. Most LCGs are only meant for 2p duels. Some will do multiplayer up to maybe 4, but that doesn't even necessarily mean that 4 is an ideal size. I kind of feel like you're just trying to stretch the game into a use it wasn't intended for.
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Mario
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I personally think that Eldritch Horror gets worse and worse every player you add after 4.
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M.C.Crispy
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MerryHo wrote:
I personally think that Eldritch Horror gets worse and worse every player you add after 4.
Nah, 5 and 7 are nasty, but 6 and (presumably) 8 are fine.
 
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Mario
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mccrispy wrote:
MerryHo wrote:
I personally think that Eldritch Horror gets worse and worse every player you add after 4.
Nah, 5 and 7 are nasty, but 6 and (presumably) 8 are fine.


They did fix 5 and 7 player issues with errata for the reference cards, but the length and downtime at more than 4 players is what kills it for me.
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Mikael Svensson
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Yep, the more the merrier. And for those odd 5 and 7 player Eldritch Horror games, there is a fix downloadable on BGG

Yes, the downtime could be an issue if it was not a co-op game. A game like LotR LCG have effectively no downtime, neither does Eldritch Horror, since you all play together, the turns and decisions are quick, and the only increase you see in game time with more players added is that the discussions about solutions and tactics become more involved due to more people adding their 2 cents.

I am just whining since our RPG group is 6 players in all and sometimes we want to share a thematic game - and LoTR and this new and sexy Arkham Horror LCG would be perfect additions to our library (well, I already own everything released for LoTR...). I will definitely do 2x3 players instead - not at all a bad idea really, but if this game is anything like LoTR, it will benefit greatly from having a full 4 player group. And then there are those times when we are 5 players....

Oh, the new Mansions of Madness 2nd Ed will do nicely on those occasions.
 
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Michael Porter
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I do think this game is easier to homebrew a 5th player with its built in difficulty levels and tweaking the chaos bag.
 
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ron wood
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Don't forget you also need two core sets to even hit above two players.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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MerryHo wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
MerryHo wrote:
I personally think that Eldritch Horror gets worse and worse every player you add after 4.
Nah, 5 and 7 are nasty, but 6 and (presumably) 8 are fine.


They did fix 5 and 7 player issues with errata for the reference cards, but the length and downtime at more than 4 players is what kills it for me.
Ah, I thought you were referring to gameplay issues. 0laytime isn't a problem.
 
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Tyler Howsare
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The game is designed for 1-4 players, but I haven't seen anything yet that shows that adding more would be a problem, as long as you have enough copies of the game.
 
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Mikael Svensson
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Well, in these kinds of gamesystems, adding more players is always unbalancing the game making it too esy for the players. Oh then just add more opponents? Sure, but that would most probably unbalance it against the players due to how the combat works. There are no easy fixes for this to work. I have tried alot with LoTR and it just never felt right.
 
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Tyler Howsare
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Mixx wrote:
Well, in these kinds of gamesystems, adding more players is always unbalancing the game making it too esy for the players. Oh then just add more opponents? Sure, but that would most probably unbalance it against the players due to how the combat works. There are no easy fixes for this to work. I have tried alot with LoTR and it just never felt right.

How is adding more players unbalancing it when the number of enemy cards drawn and clues required is dependent on the number of players?
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M.C.Crispy
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vlad3theimpaler wrote:
Mixx wrote:
Well, in these kinds of gamesystems, adding more players is always unbalancing the game making it too esy for the players. Oh then just add more opponents? Sure, but that would most probably unbalance it against the players due to how the combat works. There are no easy fixes for this to work. I have tried alot with LoTR and it just never felt right.

How is adding more players unbalancing it when the number of enemy cards drawn and clues required is dependent on the number of players?
I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with Mixx's unsupported assertion, but in my experience balance is not just about raw quantities or ratios. In some games the scaling is non-linear because of such things as the way that player interaction scales (e.g. in a 6P there are 5 players supporting my action so there's a higher chance that one will have the necessary support card than in a 2P game)
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Tyler Howsare
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mccrispy wrote:
vlad3theimpaler wrote:
Mixx wrote:
Well, in these kinds of gamesystems, adding more players is always unbalancing the game making it too esy for the players. Oh then just add more opponents? Sure, but that would most probably unbalance it against the players due to how the combat works. There are no easy fixes for this to work. I have tried alot with LoTR and it just never felt right.

How is adding more players unbalancing it when the number of enemy cards drawn and clues required is dependent on the number of players?
I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with Mixx's unsupported assertion, but in my experience balance is not just about raw quantities or ratios. In some games the scaling is non-linear because of such things as the way that player interaction scales (e.g. in a 6P there are 5 players supporting my action so there's a higher chance that one will have the necessary support card than in a 2P game)


That's a good point. I think that by the time you're already at 4 players, though, the impact of a 5th or even 6th player would likely be less than going from 2 to 3 or 3 to 4.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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vlad3theimpaler wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
vlad3theimpaler wrote:
Mixx wrote:
Well, in these kinds of gamesystems, adding more players is always unbalancing the game making it too esy for the players. Oh then just add more opponents? Sure, but that would most probably unbalance it against the players due to how the combat works. There are no easy fixes for this to work. I have tried alot with LoTR and it just never felt right.

How is adding more players unbalancing it when the number of enemy cards drawn and clues required is dependent on the number of players?
I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with Mixx's unsupported assertion, but in my experience balance is not just about raw quantities or ratios. In some games the scaling is non-linear because of such things as the way that player interaction scales (e.g. in a 6P there are 5 players supporting my action so there's a higher chance that one will have the necessary support card than in a 2P game)


That's a good point. I think that by the time you're already at 4 players, though, the impact of a 5th or even 6th player would likely be less than going from 2 to 3 or 3 to 4.
Except that in a 5 or 6 player game, if one person supports you and spends the resource, there may still be somebody with the resource to support me - even if the original supporting resource isn't replenished. That's what makes it non-linear. I play a fair bit of Pathfinder Adventures on Android and my 6 character parties have waaaaaay more flexibility in support than do my 2 and noticeably more than my 4 (of course there are other factors that counter that gain, so a 6 character is harder IMO - I have 30 turns to defeat 40 cards in 6P, rather than 30 turns to defeat 30 cards in 4P and 30 turns to defeat 20 cards in 2P).
 
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Xavier Domínguez
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Mixx wrote:
Well, in these kinds of gamesystems, adding more players is always unbalancing the game making it too esy for the players. Oh then just add more opponents? Sure, but that would most probably unbalance it against the players due to how the combat works. There are no easy fixes for this to work. I have tried alot with LoTR and it just never felt right.


From what we saw during the demo, I think AH will fix the scaling problem beautifully, allowing great solo experience and equally great experience for 5-6 players (assuming enough investigators are released with time).
Progress and difficulty are tied to the number of players, so even with more players, the number of actions/turns needed to progress are similar. The only real issue would be if the big bosses don't have scaled health, but I think they will not miss that.

Small enemies and investigations are individually approach, so there's no such thing as group gang them like in LotR. You can kill enemies engaged with someone else, but it comes with a risk; if you fail the test, the other player takes the damage, so it might not be worth it after a while.

The only problem I could see is the damage triggered by flipping locations will not add up as fast as if you would play alone/with fewer players.

mccrispy wrote:
I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with Mixx's unsupported assertion, but in my experience balance is not just about raw quantities or ratios. In some games the scaling is non-linear because of such things as the way that player interaction scales (e.g. in a 6P there are 5 players supporting my action so there's a higher chance that one will have the necessary support card than in a 2P game)


So far, there's no such thing as player interaction in this game. You can't play cards during other players turn. You can't attach cards to another player's character. You don't really support each other excpet when you share a location and that's only to discard a card to help someone else pass a test (but how many times can someone do that before losing their hand?). This feels like an individual experience performed in group more than a trully cooperative game like LotR.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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x_chan wrote:
So far, there's no such thing as player interaction in this game. You can't play cards during other players turn. You can't attach cards to another player's character. You don't really support each other excpet when you share a location and that's only to discard a card to help someone else pass a test (but how many times can someone do that before losing their hand?). This feels like an individual experience performed in group more than a trully cooperative game like LotR.
So, collaborative, rather than cooperative. Much like Arkham Horror itself. Works for me.

My comment on the non-linear nature of scaling still holds and the example I have was merely that - an example. Even in AHCG with more players, there is more chance that there will be someone available to come to your location, and a discarded card is a smaller proportion of the available card pool
 
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