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Massive Darkness» Forums » General

Subject: Too simple for veteran RPG players? rss

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Jos Black
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My gaming group has been playing RPG's for a long time, D&d, Warhammer, Fading suns, Vampire, the works. We sometimes play boardgames in beween campaigns. I came across Massive Darkness while searching for something new. I'm interested in buying it but I'm concerned the game in itself is too light or too easy for a veteran RPG group. I've never played Zombicide or any of their other games so I don't know what to expect.

In short, will this game bore us or does it stay interesting?

Thanks
 
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Jonah Rees
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Probably bores you tbh. It's a very light board games, pretty quick to set up and easy/quick to learn/play (one of the reasons that I backed it). It you want a more in-depth dungeon style board game you probably want Myth or Shadows of Brimstone (maybe Dark Souls too). There may be some others but these are the ones I have experience of.
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Thanee
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Just wait for Sword & Sorcery to come out later this year.

Bye
Thanee
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Andreas Lieberoth Wadum
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I'm a $1 backer, and I'm reaching the same conclusion.

We play a lot of Shadows of Brimstone. Perfect as RPG light.

If you want something that's very RPG, Folklore might be right up your alley. I'm still debating since that REALLY seems like SoB/Descent skewed even more towards the traditional D&D feel & mechanics https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gbg/folklore-the-afflic...
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Sandra Dageroth
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+1 to everyone above. SoB, S&S and Folklore might be your better picks - or Vampire Hunters, which is currently on Kickstarter, since your group also plays Vampire:

Vampire Hunters
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Brian Torrens
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lieberoth wrote:
I'm a $1 backer, and I'm reaching the same conclusion.

We play a lot of Shadows of Brimstone. Perfect as RPG light.

If you want something that's very RPG, Folklore might be right up your alley. I'm still debating since that REALLY seems like SoB/Descent skewed even more towards the traditional D&D feel & mechanics https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gbg/folklore-the-afflic...


I second the vote for Folklore. It looks like an amazing boardgame/rpg-lite title. Also have a look a Middara. New company and behind schedule but it also looks like it will be a great rpg style game. I believe both companies are still taking late pledges.
 
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MM
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Brian T wrote:
Also have a look a Middara. New company and behind schedule but it also looks like it will be a great rpg style game. I believe both companies are still taking late pledges.


I'd pump the breaks on that one. Even if you like what you see, save yourself the investment now and wait for that to hit backers before purchasing. If they deliver on the quality promised, you'll be able to pickup from backer's like me who will be selling their pledges on the marketplace as soon as they arrive.

I've lost virtually all interest in this game at this point.
 
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Trent DePonte
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Too simple compared to the incredibly mentally taxing gameplay of rolling a d20 to see if you hit a giant spider?
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Mr Suitcase
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BlackerHawk wrote:
My gaming group has been playing RPG's for a long time, D&d, Warhammer, Fading suns, Vampire, the works. We sometimes play boardgames in beween campaigns. I came across Massive Darkness while searching for something new. I'm interested in buying it but I'm concerned the game in itself is too light or too easy for a veteran RPG group. I've never played Zombicide or any of their other games so I don't know what to expect.

In short, will this game bore us or does it stay interesting?

Thanks


Best thing to do is watch some videos. Even (irk) the gameplay run through, though that is tough to watch.
 
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Nick
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Why is there no mention of Gloomhaven, that game is going to rock!
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Mark Blasco

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rnickster86 wrote:
Why is there no mention of Gloomhaven, that game is going to rock!


I think Gloomhaven might perfectly hit that sweet spot between board game and role playing game. Persistent world, characters that level up, options to customize how you want to play your character, but the meat of the game is the strategy of playing out the cards to defeat the enemies.

Shadows of Brimstone is another one which takes elements of RPG's, gives you a campaign system, but within a firm board game structure.

Descent is also a great game campaign, with a lot of options now that the app allows for full co-op (although I haven't tried it, I've only played Imperial Assault, which is the Star Wars version).

Massive Darkness, while it will have a campaign and a very simple leveling up system, will be very light, mostly walking around hacking at monsters. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's certainly not going to be a heavy game. Watching the videos, it seems like it's a step up from Zombicide, and that's a really simple game to play.
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Clayton Helme
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Shameless plug: If your group is into RPGs you should check out Middara.
 
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David Griffin
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markblasco wrote:
rnickster86 wrote:
Why is there no mention of Gloomhaven, that game is going to rock!


I think Gloomhaven might perfectly hit that sweet spot between board game and role playing game. Persistent world, characters that level up, options to customize how you want to play your character, but the meat of the game is the strategy of playing out the cards to defeat the enemies.

Shadows of Brimstone is another one which takes elements of RPG's, gives you a campaign system, but within a firm board game structure.

Descent is also a great game campaign, with a lot of options now that the app allows for full co-op (although I haven't tried it, I've only played Imperial Assault, which is the Star Wars version).

Massive Darkness, while it will have a campaign and a very simple leveling up system, will be very light, mostly walking around hacking at monsters. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's certainly not going to be a heavy game. Watching the videos, it seems like it's a step up from Zombicide, and that's a really simple game to play.


Of the games I've played, Shadows of Brimstone is a pretty good RPG in a box experience, though I think they got too enthusiastic in some of the tables. Players shouldn't lose characters because of a couple of bad die rolls (see void tornadoes in town events). Nor should they lose critical equipment in travel hazards just going back to town. But it's a heck of a fun game.

I hope both this game and Dungeon Crusade (both of which I backed, first time I have backed anything) give me some of that same feeling.

I'm interested in Descent's recent work in making solitaire variants as well. I more often play solitaire than with a group so I like games that have good solitaire variants.
 
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Jos Black
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Thanks for all the tips.
I haven't checked out all of the suggestions but I'm looking for something without the need of a dm and for up to at least 6 players, do any of the suggested games have this?
 
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Jos Black
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BlackerHawk wrote:
Thanks for all the tips.
I haven't checked out all of the suggestions but I'm looking for something without the need of a dm and for up to at least 6 players, do any of the suggested games have this?


It seems like all of these games are for 4 or 5 players, guess I'm stuck on Massive Darkness anyway
 
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Thanee
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Yeah, 6 players limits your choices quite a bit.

Bye
Thanee
 
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Jonah Rees
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Shadows of Brimstone is 6 players but you will need both core sets to do so and to be honest you'll probably want some of the extra monsters packs too which means it could get expensive. The expansion content up the difficulty a fair bit and you'll want that for six players in particular.
 
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Eric B
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Honestly, I think the game has a lot of intrinsic details that are not apparent upon first glance. For instance the equipment seems simple enough. You can equip a single two-handed weapon or two one-handed weapons. However, you also can equip a single two-handed sword AND a single two-handed bow. This will allow you to use either on your turn and be either melee or range at any given time. You also could just equip two two-handed swords that are vastly different and use either or depending on the situation.

That still doesn't seem terribly detailed until you factor in some weapons (mostly bows and staves) can also be equipped in the armor slot. Lets say you have two one-handed swords in your weapon slots and then a two-handed bow in your armor. This allows you to (I think) use your bow on any given turn OR still use both of the one-handed swords instead (I might be reading this wrong though and the weapons equipped in your armor slot only help with defense when applicable?)? You also could theoretically equip two shields and an armor piece for some serious defense. This might be good with say Owen who has Retribution and deals damage for each shield he gets over a hit.
 
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Brian C
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Warning.

Veteran RPG gamers take heed.


The following announcement may save you thousands of dollars:
the whole entire world of RPG board gaming will most likely not, at the moment, meet your needs. You would be wise, I think, to keep your wallets in your pockets.

There is nothing, and I mean nothing, on shelves currently that will slake the thirst of the veteran RPGer. The reason for this is very simple: they haven't built anything for us yet.

Shadows of Brimstone was close, but they didn't follow through on that game, and the end result is a pile of rules that don't work very well together to bring the veteran RPGer the long-term depth he/she is looking for.

Sadly, SoB's contemporaries don't really deserve being mentioned. D&D's offering is a joke, and the whole rest of the spectrum all fall to the same weakness -- they are built for children. Massive Darkness probably even moreso than most, in this regard.

There is hope for the future though. Gloomhaven looks absolutely built for the veteran RPGer; it looks amazing, though it has legacy elements that may turn some off. S&S looks like it's trying to bridge the gap between children's dungeon crawl and the deeper, adult version - definitely worth a look IMO.

There's also Perdition's Mouth that adds a euro-y rondell mechanic, and uses attrition instead of power creep (the heroes actually get weaker instead of stronger, the deeper they crawl).

Folklore deserves a mention here too, because they went for depth over simplicity, which should be recognized, but their choice of going with a 1d100 for a lot of their mechanics kind of lost me -- no denying the depth they are striving for though. Middara may also be another one but it's hard to tell where that puppy will land on the spectrum (I'm guessing it'll be crunchy by everything I've seen, but it's still a guess).

All in all, the future looks bright -- but the present is unremarkable and quite dim.

Edit: There is one game on the market that may bring a veteran RPGer into a froth-like state of "I Need You, Right Now." But it's not a dungeon crawl -- it's a civ-builder combined with Monster Hunter-like tendencies: Kingdom Death: Monster. It's in the process of being reprinted, so you'll have to wait a bit, and it's hella expensive ($400 for the base game).

But that's the only thing on the market that will give the veteran RPGer what he's looking for, IMO.
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Jonah Rees
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deathleech wrote:
Honestly, I think the game has a lot of intrinsic details that are not apparent upon first glance. For instance the equipment seems simple enough. You can equip a single two-handed weapon or two one-handed weapons. However, you also can equip a single two-handed sword AND a single two-handed bow. This will allow you to use either on your turn and be either melee or range at any given time. You also could just equip two two-handed swords that are vastly different and use either or depending on the situation.

That still doesn't seem terribly detailed until you factor in some weapons (mostly bows and staves) can also be equipped in the armor slot. Lets say you have two one-handed swords in your weapon slots and then a two-handed bow in your armor. This allows you to (I think) use your bow on any given turn OR still use both of the one-handed swords instead (I might be reading this wrong though and the weapons equipped in your armor slot only help with defense when applicable?)? You also could theoretically equip two shields and an armor piece for some serious defense. This might be good with say Owen who has Retribution and deals damage for each shield he gets over a hit.


This is incredibly simple in terms of depth. Particularly for long term RPG players.
 
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Philip Kitching
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deathleech wrote:
Honestly, I think the game has a lot of intrinsic details that are not apparent upon first glance. For instance the equipment seems simple enough. You can equip a single two-handed weapon or two one-handed weapons. However, you also can equip a single two-handed sword AND a single two-handed bow. This will allow you to use either on your turn and be either melee or range at any given time. You also could just equip two two-handed swords that are vastly different and use either or depending on the situation.

That still doesn't seem terribly detailed until you factor in some weapons (mostly bows and staves) can also be equipped in the armor slot. Lets say you have two one-handed swords in your weapon slots and then a two-handed bow in your armor. This allows you to (I think) use your bow on any given turn OR still use both of the one-handed swords instead (I might be reading this wrong though and the weapons equipped in your armor slot only help with defense when applicable?)? You also could theoretically equip two shields and an armor piece for some serious defense. This might be good with say Owen who has Retribution and deals damage for each shield he gets over a hit.


Sorry but as a veteran RPG player that sounds both missing the point about RPG depth and a rubbish abstract masquerading as an RPG.

Depth to me does not mean that when I meet a goblin, my choice is attacking with a two handed sword or two single handed swords and a bow or two shields!
shake

Instead it means things like:

'I recognise Grog the goblin from that sheep stealing business last year. He's taking a risk being here alone so he must want something - perhaps we can trade that for help against Narath. I call out the traditional goblin greeting in my best dark tongue: "Hi Grog, who's feeding your family?" Grog turns and snarls, what I didn't know is that my mangled dark tongue changed "feeding" into "eating"...'

Perhaps I can get information from this encounter or an ally or a new adventure or even just a recurring NPC that might provide this in the future and some memorable lessons in conjugating the verb "to eat" in dark tongue.

Of course, sometimes all I'll get is 50xp and a rusty sword.

By contrast, Boardgame RPGs tend to fall into three categories: those that give you 50xp, those that give you the rusty sword and those that give you both.
 
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Eric B
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Postmark wrote:
Sorry but as a veteran RPG player that sounds both missing the point about RPG depth and a rubbish abstract masquerading as an RPG.

Depth to me does not mean that when I meet a goblin, my choice is attacking with a two handed sword or two single handed swords and a bow or two shields!
shake

Instead it means things like:

'I recognise Grog the goblin from that sheep stealing business last year. He's taking a risk being here alone so he must want something - perhaps we can trade that for help against Narath. I call out the traditional goblin greeting in my best dark tongue: "Hi Grog, who's feeding your family?" Grog turns and snarls, what I didn't know is that my mangled dark tongue changed "feeding" into "eating"...'

Perhaps I can get information from this encounter or an ally or a new adventure or even just a recurring NPC that might provide this in the future and some memorable lessons in conjugating the verb "to eat" in dark tongue.

Of course, sometimes all I'll get is 50xp and a rusty sword.

By contrast, Boardgame RPGs tend to fall into three categories: those that give you 50xp, those that give you the rusty sword and those that give you both.


I was responding to game play actually IN Massive Darkness. What you are describing is the role playing in RPG. Of course Massive Darkness is light on that. In fact it's totally void of it. It's a very straight forward game in that regards. You can't choose to interrogate a goblin, or try to lure him into a trap, or any number of other activities you can do in games like D&D. It's a hack and slash dungeon crawler. Your only options when it comes to interaction with enemies is kill them or run. That's it. If you want to play and build your character a few different ways there is that possibility, but I am not sure why anyone would be under the impression this is an RPG or has many RPG elements? It has leveling, gear, and killing. It's supposed to be faster pace and more straight forward game than something like D&D.
 
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Brian C
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Postmark wrote:
Instead it means things like:

'I recognise Grog the goblin from that sheep stealing business last year. He's taking a risk being here alone so he must want something - perhaps we can trade that for help against Narath. I call out the traditional goblin greeting in my best dark tongue: "Hi Grog, who's feeding your family?" Grog turns and snarls, what I didn't know is that my mangled dark tongue changed "feeding" into "eating"...'

Perhaps I can get information from this encounter or an ally or a new adventure or even just a recurring NPC that might provide this in the future and some memorable lessons in conjugating the verb "to eat" in dark tongue.

From what I know of Gloomhaven and Folklore, those are both going to get very close to scratching this itch.
 
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Jonah Rees
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deathleech wrote:
Postmark wrote:
Sorry but as a veteran RPG player that sounds both missing the point about RPG depth and a rubbish abstract masquerading as an RPG.

Depth to me does not mean that when I meet a goblin, my choice is attacking with a two handed sword or two single handed swords and a bow or two shields!
shake

Instead it means things like:

'I recognise Grog the goblin from that sheep stealing business last year. He's taking a risk being here alone so he must want something - perhaps we can trade that for help against Narath. I call out the traditional goblin greeting in my best dark tongue: "Hi Grog, who's feeding your family?" Grog turns and snarls, what I didn't know is that my mangled dark tongue changed "feeding" into "eating"...'

Perhaps I can get information from this encounter or an ally or a new adventure or even just a recurring NPC that might provide this in the future and some memorable lessons in conjugating the verb "to eat" in dark tongue.

Of course, sometimes all I'll get is 50xp and a rusty sword.

By contrast, Boardgame RPGs tend to fall into three categories: those that give you 50xp, those that give you the rusty sword and those that give you both.


I was responding to game play actually IN Massive Darkness. What you are describing is the role playing in RPG.


Because the question was specifically about whether MD would be appropriate for recreating an RPG experience in a board game ...


deathleech wrote:
If you want to play and build your character a few different ways there is that possibility, but I am not sure why anyone would be under the impression this is an RPG or has many RPG elements? It has leveling, gear, and killing.


Again, because the OP asked a question about how much MD would fulfill the RPG itch that they were looking for and they are clearly not familiar with MD.

I get that you're excited for the game (because you've commented in pretty much every single thread on the game) but you should read the threads properly and address answers to the question under consideration.
 
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Julien Duminil
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jonahmaul wrote:
Because the question was specifically about whether MD would be appropriate for recreating an RPG experience in a board game ...

Note that he didn't asked for another RPG, but for a boardgame between two RPG campaigns

I'm not a so-called veteran RPG player, but I enjoyed a few D&D campaigns (and I've started a D&D5 campaign as DM). Meanwhile I enjoy a lot of boardgames.

And while I enjoy a boardgame like Andor, with an explicit story and a lot of text to read, I enjoy (a little) more playing a "lighter" game like Zombicide (season 3) with a more implicit story but more time making choices (actually building your own story).

BlackerHawk wrote:
I'm looking for something without the need of a dm and for up to at least 6 players, do any of the suggested games have this?

It depends on the mechanics you are looking for in a boardgame. What boardgames do you enjoy with your group of players?
Zombicide Season 3: Rue Morgue allows to play up to 12 players (I played it up to 8 players, not so much boardgames allows that).
You can easily tweak the difficulty with the addition of some expansions if needed (but require the appropriate budget).
Maybe you can try it somewhere ...
 
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