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Atlantic Wall: D-Day to Falaise» Forums » General

Subject: 191st Bn, 2nd Army Group Royal Artillery rss

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Don't know if any of you have ever wondered what this Canadian unit is. I do know it is identified as the 191st Battalion, 2nd Army Group Royal Artillery. It is comprised of 25 pounders and focused primarily on a Counter Battery Fire mission. It's job is to eradicate enemy artillery using spotter-planes and sound acoustic equipment.

SPA or Towed?

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Eric Johnson
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According to this it was towed. Not Canadian as far as I can tell.


http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/939BXHA.pdf

http://nigelef.tripod.com/regtsumm.htm

David A. Lamb View from the bridge: the story of the 191st Field Regiment of the Royal Artillery, the Herts & Essex Yeomanry, 1942-1944 Watford : D.A. Lamb, [1971]
 
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Ian Brown
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Joey,

Eric is right. It is British. It brings me to a point I have been trying to get across to the DG guys with little success.

The British Artillery was the elite of the Army. It represented over 25% of the fighting strength, with the infantry only 17%.

The British and Canadians in Normany fought set piece battles wherever possible. Key to this was the initial artillery barrage. Wherever lines settled, extraordinary effort was made to identify just where the Germans were, even using Resistance Intel. All batteries had both acoustic and radar support to help silence the enemy batteries and to degrade and demoralise the Germans. The 25 pdrs were supplemented by the 3.7" AA guns (for some reason not in the game) which acted as medium artillery firing air burst shells. The aim was to suppress the German defences and allow the CW troops to get into the enemy positions with minimal losses. There are examples of troops achieving their objectives without a single casualty. During advances the artillery provide very close support (supplemented by the RAF). The CW troops came unstuck when they lost this close support.

The game really needs to reflect this very different fighting style, but sadly does not.

Ian
 
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Tom Stearns
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Ian I'm interested to know how you would reflect British assault technique within in the game.
 
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British you say? By George I believe you're on to something here. Do tell Ian, how does one go about making Her Majesties assault technique within the confines of this game? (spoken in a very regal British accent)

In all seriousness, wouldn't you need a suppression action added to the Ground Assault process to implement such a thing? (all we have now is KIA or running away)
 
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Tom Stearns
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there is actually suppression of adj defenders by artillery to cancel the adj defender shift
 
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...and it has a huge impact on the GA process changing the combat odds by 1 or 2 columns easily. Perhaps this is already included but the GI's shouldn't get to use it?
 
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Ian Brown
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Guys,

The simple answer is you can't. Which is why I have been raising this as an issue for months, and why I have not had a serious answer from DG. I do not know who was the British expert, but there seems to have been a lack of understanding applied here. My group have been experts on the British Army for many years and we got into GOSS because we wanted a good game that reflected their unique fighting style.

The set piece attack was Monty's preferred option, from El Alemein onwards, through Normandy to Operations Constellation and Guildford.

My group have been playing AW for two years and are now playing June 29pm. This has thrown up a number of issues: first, the Germans are not as stupid as historically. There are no stupid counter attacks, just defence in depth slowly giving ground while weakening the CW forces, and there will be no attack on Mortain. Second, the CW need to keep their Army intact for the push into Germany. Getting to Falaise with little left is not realistic. The British Army was already shrinking historically. 59th Division was disbanded for reinforcements on 11 August, with the 50th to follow in December.

The required changes are as follows: enemy OCT decreases within three hexes after every night turn (aggressive patrolling); ditto for enemy artillery every time it fires (unmasks); CW artillery can create OCT (smoke creation and rolling barrages) as part of a suppression phase.

There are also issues with counters. The absence of 3.7" guns is important. To give you some idea, there is a documented example of two guns firing over 600 rounds in one day at a German position as part of an attrition exercise. In addition, brigades had 6pdr guns embedded to provide intrinsic AT. I could also quibble with the attack factors, which seem to ignore not only the 3.7s, but also the 'pepper pot' attack.

Finally, some other issues: the attack on Hill 112 was supported by HMS Rodney (BB), as well as the cruisers Roberts and Belfast, but the Hill is out of range; attempts to sieze the Hill included a night attack (not permitted in the rules), and I feel the affect of Crocodiles needs beefing up. They scared the dickens out of the Germans.

I could go on, but time is short. I feel I may have missed something but am happy to discuss the Brits any time you want.

As I say, I have attempted to raise these issues before, but with no success. I think GOSS is a brilliant concept which seems to replicate US and German tactics well, but does not work for the CW.

If you are interested in how the British Army fought, may I suggest you read 'Monty's Men' (the 2013 Templar medal winner) by John Buckley. Finally, the US should be able to use the same tactics. Bradley was so impressed that he applied the same tactics as part of Cobra.

Ian
 
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You know you just might be onto something there Ian. Perhaps a CW player could suspend the fire capabilities of these special Artillery units indicating they have just smoked the attackers hex and despite his attack status he remains in OCT.

I'll be honest here, I love the game and its system but at this level of detail, it should have had individual ships and their respective firepower & ranges. Still doable guys...whistle

If a Special Artillery unit is in range of German artillery units that fire THEN I think the German Artillery should temporarily lose its OCT.

For the aggressive night patrolling thing to work there needs to be a counter punch for the German player, say the CW player can declare 1 aggressive patrol per division per GD. Then you must give the German player a counter to it, say if he accepts a fatigue 1 marker then he spent the night countering the CW aggressive patrol or some such thing.
 
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Tom Stearns
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Ian thanks for the ideas you and your group have come up with. It is interesting stuff. I'm not sure Joe and Doug could make all the changes you suggest this late in the game though.

Are you saying that your group has house ruled the game and added these elements you talked about? If so what restrictions do you add to the CW side? With such advantages as you describe not sure how the Germans could put up a credible defense. As it is the Allies have such an advantage I imagine with more advantages they would be home for Christmas.

I also think there should be some counter-battery ability.
 
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Joseph Youst
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Ian,

I still believe much of what you are bringing up is below the level of the game. But I am interested in what you have to say. Do this: email me at joyous@sbcglobal.net and we'll discuss how what and why of CW stuff and the rules. I'll then come up with my analysis on those topics and how it should work in the game, and then post the answers publicly here. If there is some stuff that can be done without major changes, I can always consider hyper-optional rules down the line (esp when we get to Market Garden, the Scheldt, and the Rhineland).

BTW, what about the CW in Italy? How much did they change from NAfrica and then to NW Europe?
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