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Subject: Prelude to Axanar rss

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Mac Mcleod
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This is pretty cool.

A canon respecting exploration of the first wars between the federation and the klingon empire.

CBS and Paramount shut it down.

But J.J. Abrahms and Justin Lin told them they were idiots and got the two companies to back down.



There is more content in this 18 minute prelude than in all three of the new star trek films. Excellent writing and acting. I laughed with joy several times.
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David desJardins
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In every space combat game I've ever played (e.g., Star Fleet Battles), quantity makes far more difference than quality. Bigger ships, smaller ships, tougher ships, what matters the most is having more firepower and armor than your opponent. It's hard for me to shake that idea and buy into the notion that qualitative improvements in the ships matter more than just building more faster, which is what this piece is trying to say. I wish there were more support for that idea in Star Trek canon. All of the battles I recall, a few smaller ships can easily destroy one more advanced ship if it stays to fight. They all have basically the same weapons and shields, etc.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
In every space combat game I've ever played (e.g., Star Fleet Battles), quantity makes far more difference than quality. Bigger ships, smaller ships, tougher ships, what matters the most is having more firepower and armor than your opponent. It's hard for me to shake that idea and buy into the notion that qualitative improvements in the ships matter more than just building more faster, which is what this piece is trying to say. I wish there were more support for that idea in Star Trek canon. All of the battles I recall, a few smaller ships can easily destroy one more advanced ship if it stays to fight. They all have basically the same weapons and shields, etc.


Ummm....see also: all naval warfare to date.

Even when you DO have a 'massive leap' in technology (rifled cannons, ironclad armor, uniform large-caliber main armaments, etc), it has always remained true that a large number of the predecessor designs would easily overwhelm the new design.

Which is not to say that new improvements don't help - they certainly do. And in very specific circumstances (IE., say, CSS Virginia at Hampton Roads) can appear overwhelming - but in the long run, numbers will always win out. If you are 'vastly outnumbered' and losing all your battles, a single new leap in technology is just not going to save you. (Ah, hell, we can throw WW2 Germany with their V2 rockets, Me-262s, and Elektrobootes in here as another data point. MASSIVE technology leaps - to the point that the rocket and submarine designs they developed were being copied verbatim by the US and USSR for decades afterwards...and it made not one lick of difference to their war effort.)
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David desJardins
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XanderF wrote:
Ummm....see also: all naval warfare to date.


Of course, that's why space combat games tend to work this way---because they are influenced by naval combat.

The episode supposes something different---that a qualitative leap in design is going to make more difference than just building more ships as quickly as possible. Could that theoretically be true for some future technology? It could. But I see little support for it in Star Trek to date.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
A canon respecting exploration of the first wars between the federation and the klingon empire.


The problem here is there is a very strong chance that that is the setting of Star Trek: Discovery.
 
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XanderF wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
In every space combat game I've ever played (e.g., Star Fleet Battles), quantity makes far more difference than quality. Bigger ships, smaller ships, tougher ships, what matters the most is having more firepower and armor than your opponent. It's hard for me to shake that idea and buy into the notion that qualitative improvements in the ships matter more than just building more faster, which is what this piece is trying to say. I wish there were more support for that idea in Star Trek canon. All of the battles I recall, a few smaller ships can easily destroy one more advanced ship if it stays to fight. They all have basically the same weapons and shields, etc.


Ummm....see also: all naval warfare to date.

Even when you DO have a 'massive leap' in technology (rifled cannons, ironclad armor, uniform large-caliber main armaments, etc), it has always remained true that a large number of the predecessor designs would easily overwhelm the new design.

Which is not to say that new improvements don't help - they certainly do. And in very specific circumstances (IE., say, CSS Virginia at Hampton Roads) can appear overwhelming - but in the long run, numbers will always win out. If you are 'vastly outnumbered' and losing all your battles, a single new leap in technology is just not going to save you. (Ah, hell, we can throw WW2 Germany with their V2 rockets, Me-262s, and Elektrobootes in here as another data point. MASSIVE technology leaps - to the point that the rocket and submarine designs they developed were being copied verbatim by the US and USSR for decades afterwards...and it made not one lick of difference to their war effort.)


Science fiction can break that concept, as we've seen in Trek specifically.

One tiny slow ship with a new tech (cloaking) destroys several bases.

Hell, the transition from normal energy weapons (which are limited by lightspeed) to phasers (which mysteriously are not) is a plot point in episodes of a few of the shows.
 
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David desJardins
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windsagio wrote:
Hell, the transition from normal energy weapons (which are limited by lightspeed) to phasers (which mysteriously are not) is a plot point in episodes of a few of the shows.


But that's not so apparent in the transition from Klingon D6 to D7, or in the Federation construction of warships in place of exploration vessels. In all previous episodes that I've seen, these have only been viewed as incremental improvements that were a natural response to advancing technology and wartime needs, not as game changers.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
XanderF wrote:
Ummm....see also: all naval warfare to date.


Of course, that's why space combat games tend to work this way---because they are influenced by naval combat.

The episode supposes something different---that a qualitative leap in design is going to make more difference than just building more ships as quickly as possible. Could that theoretically be true for some future technology? It could. But I see little support for it in Star Trek to date.


Mentioned some above, but some more examples:
Romulan Cloaking device: They're behind in every way (well except for those plasmas) but the snipe in balance of terror absolutely destroys several base stations *Special note that SFB and FedCom nerf the hell out of the cloaking device so it's fair.

In enterprise & voyager they encounter sublight species that try to attack them, it's treated as a laughable non-threat even with nukes.

In voyager again, there's the example of the bioweapon they develop against species a whole bunch of numbers, which pretty much ends that war (noting yes that's a war crime probably).

Similarly, although it was not developed for that, Genesis is a war-ending single piece of tech as a WMD. That's why the Klingons are so upset about it in Movies 2 & 3.

It's not a plot point I don't think, but breakthroughs in warp technology & scanning would have a similar impact

I tried to stay reasonably simple because there are a lot of McGuffin's in Star Trek (Ie magical kill-borg torpedoes), but there's plenty of places for this in the canon, and the nature of space combat makes a lot more possible in this way.
 
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David desJardins
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That's fair, not to discount the possibility of qualitative leaps in ship and weapon technology. I'm just not sure they make the case for those here.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
That's fair, not to discount the possibility of qualitative leaps in ship and weapon technology. I'm just not sure they make the case for those here.


I just enjoy talking about it :D

In modern warfare, Carrier groups are a similar example.

Interestingly, although it comes up in SFB, you essentially only ever see capitol ship combat in Star Trek.

 
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Geosphere wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
A canon respecting exploration of the first wars between the federation and the klingon empire.


The problem here is there is a very strong chance that that is the setting of Star Trek: Discovery.

No, it's already been announced to be 10 years before the original.
 
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whac3 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
A canon respecting exploration of the first wars between the federation and the klingon empire.


The problem here is there is a very strong chance that that is the setting of Star Trek: Discovery.

No, it's already been announced to be 10 years before the original.


Isn't that this time period?
 
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Geosphere wrote:
whac3 wrote:

No, it's already been announced to be 10 years before the original.


Isn't that this time period?

No, the first wars between the Federation and the Klingons was much earlier than that.
 
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Axnar is 20 years before the Original Series. Discovery is 10 years before the Original Series.
 
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David desJardins
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Prelude to Axanar covers the period 2241-2245. The ship under construction at Axanar is the USS Constitution (NCC-1700). The USS Enterprise of TOS is also completed in 2245, according to the original timeline. TOS begins in 2265, I think. Star Trek Discovery is set "10 years earlier", so all of these events are relatively close in time.

Since the Enterprise is an exploration vessel, and the Constitution on which it is based is supposedly being built as part of a Starfleet shift to a war footing (according to Prelude to Axanar), there's some inconsistency there, although it could possibly be resolved (after construction and the end of the war the Enterprise was converted to a more versatile vessel).
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Prelude to Axanar covers the period 2241-2245. The ship under construction at Axanar is the USS Constitution (NCC-1700). The USS Enterprise of TOS is also completed in 2245, according to the original timeline. TOS begins in 2265, I think. Star Trek Discovery is set "10 years earlier", so all of these events are relatively close in time.

Since the Enterprise is an exploration vessel, and the Constitution on which it is based is supposedly being built as part of a StarFleet shift to a war footing (according to Prelude to Axanar), there's some inconsistency there.


In Extended Universe, The Constitution Class is a Heavy Cruiser.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
There is more content in this 18 minute prelude than in all three of the new star trek films. Excellent writing and acting. I laughed with joy several times.

Yeah, thanks Star Trek Axanar for destroying ST fan film fiction. Are you guys not aware of the HUGE controversy Axanar has caused? Abrams said CBS and Paramount would drop the lawsuit but they didn't. Instead they released new guidelines that are causing most fan productions to shut down for good out of fear of being sued. A few web searches will get you whole sad and greedy story.

EDIT: And yes, Prelude was good and Axanar would have been awesome.
 
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Gialmere wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
There is more content in this 18 minute prelude than in all three of the new star trek films. Excellent writing and acting. I laughed with joy several times.

Yeah, thanks Star Trek Axinar for destroying ST fan film fiction. Are you guys not aware of the HUGE controversy Axinar has caused? Abrams said CBS and Paramount would drop the lawsuit but they didn't. Instead they released new guidelines that are causing most fan productions to shut down for good out of fear of being sued. A few web searches will get you whole sad and greedy story.


I don't know if I would call it greedy. Paramount and CBS is protecting their intellectual property.
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I didn't say they were the ones being greedy.
 
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Gialmere wrote:
I didn't say they were the ones being greedy.


I apologize. Gut reaction from when I hear greedy being tossed around, it's usually in reference to corporations.
 
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Good points all. On phone...

Sufficient Jet fighters vs any number of prop wings. Sure.. Have to get to a minimum number.

Impression is federation went from primary exploration to primary warships and built sufficient numbers before engaging klingons.

Didnt carriers basically kill battleships even thi there were few of them?

Didn't u.s. troops with modern tanks roll over troops with 20 year old tanks in the middle east?

Werent there breakthrus in plane type vs the zeroes? Im thinking the p38 was a big deal but could be another one.

Iron clad powered ships vs wooden ships powered by sails?

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Dispaminite wrote:
Gialmere wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
There is more content in this 18 minute prelude than in all three of the new star trek films. Excellent writing and acting. I laughed with joy several times.

Yeah, thanks Star Trek Axinar for destroying ST fan film fiction. Are you guys not aware of the HUGE controversy Axinar has caused? Abrams said CBS and Paramount would drop the lawsuit but they didn't. Instead they released new guidelines that are causing most fan productions to shut down for good out of fear of being sued. A few web searches will get you whole sad and greedy story.


I don't know if I would call it greedy. Paramount and CBS is protecting their intellectual property.


You mean their 51 year old ip that should have been public domain by now?
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Prelude to Axanar covers the period 2241-2245. The ship under construction at Axanar is the USS Constitution (NCC-1700). The USS Enterprise of TOS is also completed in 2245, according to the original timeline. TOS begins in 2265, I think. Star Trek Discovery is set "10 years earlier", so all of these events are relatively close in time.

All correct except in the video, the ship in the Axanar space dock is very clearly NCC-1701, Enterprise. See the video at 17:25. Perhaps this is an error, or Constitution was being built elsewhere.


XanderF wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
In every space combat game I've ever played (e.g., Star Fleet Battles), quantity makes far more difference than quality. Bigger ships, smaller ships, tougher ships, what matters the most is having more firepower and armor than your opponent. It's hard for me to shake that idea and buy into the notion that qualitative improvements in the ships matter more than just building more faster, which is what this piece is trying to say. I wish there were more support for that idea in Star Trek canon. All of the battles I recall, a few smaller ships can easily destroy one more advanced ship if it stays to fight. They all have basically the same weapons and shields, etc.

Ummm....see also: all naval warfare to date.

Even when you DO have a 'massive leap' in technology (rifled cannons, ironclad armor, uniform large-caliber main armaments, etc), it has always remained true that a large number of the predecessor designs would easily overwhelm the new design.

Which is not to say that new improvements don't help - they certainly do. And in very specific circumstances (IE., say, CSS Virginia at Hampton Roads) can appear overwhelming - but in the long run, numbers will always win out. If you are 'vastly outnumbered' and losing all your battles, a single new leap in technology is just not going to save you. (Ah, hell, we can throw WW2 Germany with their V2 rockets, Me-262s, and Elektrobootes in here as another data point. MASSIVE technology leaps - to the point that the rocket and submarine designs they developed were being copied verbatim by the US and USSR for decades afterwards...and it made not one lick of difference to their war effort.)

Well, when you're talking ridiculously overwhelming odds, pretty much. But many examples exist of extreme advances in technology and/or doctrine which it was not practical to overcome, only adopt. The most striking is probably the aircraft carrier obsoleting the battleship. Many, many battleships were sunk by aircraft from carriers, and in the early days of WWII, when battleship anti-aircraft guns were few and poor, the number of battleships needed to take down even one attack carrier was probably more than existed in all navies of the world.

Other examples, besides ironclads and monitors, were the race-built galleons used by the English to defeat the Spanish Armada, unrestricted submarine warfare (which succeeded in the Pacific and only failed in the Atlantic due to massive Anglo-American innovation and resources), and nuclear naval weapons (which we thankfully have never put into operation). Quite a few non-naval examples exist, as well.
__

As far as games where technological advancement outweighs quantity, that's difficult to achieve in a playable board game, due to complexity, but quite ordinary in computer games, for example, MoO2 or Space Empires V. In either, one can achieve extreme technological superiority.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
Good points all. On phone...

Sufficient Jet fighters vs any number of prop wings. Sure.. Have to get to a minimum number.

Impression is federation went from primary exploration to primary warships and built sufficient numbers before engaging klingons.

Didnt carriers basically kill battleships even thi there were few of them?

Didn't u.s. troops with modern tanks roll over troops with 20 year old tanks in the middle east?

Werent there breakthrus in plane type vs the zeroes? Im thinking the p38 was a big deal but could be another one.

Iron clad powered ships vs wooden ships powered by sails?



Yeah! And, aren't you guys forgetting about death stars?
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Tall_Walt wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Prelude to Axanar covers the period 2241-2245. The ship under construction at Axanar is the USS Constitution (NCC-1700). The USS Enterprise of TOS is also completed in 2245, according to the original timeline. TOS begins in 2265, I think. Star Trek Discovery is set "10 years earlier", so all of these events are relatively close in time.

All correct except in the video, the ship in the Axanar space dock is very clearly NCC-1701, Enterprise. See the video at 17:25. Perhaps this is an error, or Constitution was being built elsewhere.


The video shows 2 ships under construction, the more complete is NCC-1701, the other doesn't have a visible number but appears to be a subsequent ship of the same class. I assume that they are building many heavy cruisers at Axanar, the Constitution is finished or almost finished and launches before the Enterprise.
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