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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » General

Subject: No miniatures version rss

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Doug L
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Does anyone have any info about the no miniatures version of Kingdom Death Monster? Timing, pricing, details, etc...?
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Leon Scheuber
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This version was only for Gencon build from damaged leftover copies. They won't be available at retail. Cost at Gencon was as far as I know $100.

Edit: By retail I mean on their website.
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Steve Trewartha
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Your best option if you really don't want miniatures is to buy the game and then sell of the miniatures either as a lot or in their sets. There is a pretty good market for that.

Intourette is correct, the no miniature version was just cannibalized full sets.
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Doug L
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that's too bad. I would have paid $100 for this game with cardboard figures instead of miniatures. Not really interested in getting into buying and selling off the extras. They should really think about a more mass market version of this game. I bet there would be many other people who would be interested. They obviously spent a ton of time on this game. I would think it would be exciting for the developers to have a lot more people playing it. I don't think they would sell any less copies with the miniatures at the high price points.
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that Matt
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canada_doug wrote:
that's too bad. I would have paid $100 for this game with cardboard figures instead of miniatures. Not really interested in getting into buying and selling off the extras. They should really think about a more mass market version of this game. I bet there would be many other people who would be interested. They obviously spent a ton of time on this game. I would think it would be exciting for the developers to have a lot more people playing it. I don't think they would sell any less copies with the miniatures at the high price points.

It seems that their hands might be full already with plans to reprint the base game, print new expansions, and reprint sold-out expansions. I agree that it'd be nice if they could also do the work for people who want mini-free games, but they're kinda busy.
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tumorous wrote:
canada_doug wrote:
that's too bad. I would have paid $100 for this game with cardboard figures instead of miniatures. Not really interested in getting into buying and selling off the extras. They should really think about a more mass market version of this game. I bet there would be many other people who would be interested. They obviously spent a ton of time on this game. I would think it would be exciting for the developers to have a lot more people playing it. I don't think they would sell any less copies with the miniatures at the high price points.

It seems that their hands might be full already with plans to reprint the base game, print new expansions, and reprint sold-out expansions. I agree that it'd be nice if they could also do the work for people who want mini-free games, but they're kinda busy.

Yep - I understand that their first priority has to be the miniature version; that makes perfect sense. I'll just add my voice that a no-minis version is something I would hop on in a second if they ever were to consider making it available more broadly. I have heard raves about the gameplay from gamers with tastes similar to mine but I have come to grips with the fact that I just wouldn't ever manage the project of assembling the minis properly. Kudos to those with commitments and talents in this area.
 
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Brother Jim wrote:
tumorous wrote:
canada_doug wrote:
that's too bad. I would have paid $100 for this game with cardboard figures instead of miniatures. Not really interested in getting into buying and selling off the extras. They should really think about a more mass market version of this game. I bet there would be many other people who would be interested. They obviously spent a ton of time on this game. I would think it would be exciting for the developers to have a lot more people playing it. I don't think they would sell any less copies with the miniatures at the high price points.

It seems that their hands might be full already with plans to reprint the base game, print new expansions, and reprint sold-out expansions. I agree that it'd be nice if they could also do the work for people who want mini-free games, but they're kinda busy.

Yep - I understand that their first priority has to be the miniature version; that makes perfect sense. I'll just add my voice that a no-minis version is something I would hop on in a second if they ever were to consider making it available more broadly. I have heard raves about the gameplay from gamers with tastes similar to mine but I have come to grips with the fact that I just wouldn't ever manage the project of assembling the minis properly. Kudos to those with commitments and talents in this area.


IIRC, Adam Poots had previously made clear that KD:M is conceived as a "boutique nightmare horror" game, and that he didn't consider a no-minis (=more affordable) version of the game, since this would be against the KD philosphy at its core -as you might already know, Kingdom Death was born as a miniatures project before the game "Monster" was built around this universe. However, Mr. Poots is well known for some drastic policy changes (like the expansions one or the most welcome confirmation of the game's reprint), so one could never know, but I wouldn't count on a "cheap KD:M" to be ever made. I would qualify that chance as unlikely, at the best...
 
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Robert Kingery
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Not sure why he would want to make a "cheap" version when 1) Kingdom Death is a miniature company first and 2) he can't keep the "not cheap" version in stock because it sells out!
 
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James
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...well, because it would open up the game to new buyers who aren't mini assembler gamers. Still, the points you guys make are perfectly valid and have been points I have made myslf with regard to Cthulhu Wars. Just to be clear, it isn't the price, just the gaming lifestyle that is a bar for me. I certainly am not entitled to any non-mini version, just saying how enthusiastic I would be for such a copy myself. Otherwise, I will cheer from the sidelines, happy for the success of the company and the happy gamers who enjoy the game.

Edit: spelling (though I hope I never see what an "assmebler" is - or see any assmebling done by anyone anywhere)
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Lake Giles
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I've seen a number of sellers put up their 'no minis' copies on ebay/elsewhere. Some people just like the figures.

I think there's still one up (that ends Tuesday) that has the core game plus all expansions, but no minis
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Leon Scheuber
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Darkson wrote:
Not sure why he would want to make a "cheap" version when 1) Kingdom Death is a miniature company first and 2) he can't keep the "not cheap" version in stock because it sells out!


This is so true. Especially now that all the molds are done Poots would be stupid to sell a cheaper version when so many people would gladly pay $400 for the game.
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Will Martin
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Intourette wrote:
Darkson wrote:
Not sure why he would want to make a "cheap" version when 1) Kingdom Death is a miniature company first and 2) he can't keep the "not cheap" version in stock because it sells out!


This is so true. Especially now that all the molds are done Poots would be stupid to sell a cheaper version when so many people would gladly pay $400 for the game.


Except there are also people who won't buy the 400$ game would who buy the 100$ version, which means unless those markets aren't mutually exclusive, it's an untapped market.

Especially because it can act as a gateway drug.
 
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Robert Kingery
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Monster is a "boutique miniature" game not a mass market game, regardless of the untapped market the miniature free game experience is not part of the designers vision of the game. Therefore not a target market or audience.
 
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Doug L
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I understand that it was created as a boutique game, but these guys are still business owners with bills to pay. Selling a non-miniature version would bring in some good cash flow with relatively little investment in development. That money could be used to fund further capital intensive projects, like sculpting and molds for miniatures, inventory on reprints and expansions, or other game visions they want to bring to market.
 
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Leon Scheuber
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canada_doug wrote:
I understand that it was created as a boutique game, but these guys are still business owners with bills to pay. Selling a non-miniature version would bring in some good cash flow with relatively little investment in development. That money could be used to fund further capital intensive projects, like sculpting and molds for miniatures, inventory on reprints and expansions, or other game visions they want to bring to market.


But a reprint of the the version that there is is the least work possible for the most cash flow. If you go without minis you kind of have to go with standees as you couldn't go with no game pieces at all. These would cost a lot of time and money.
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Doug L
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They could make the standees on a few sheets of cardboard and tag on the whole run with a reprint of the full game. The plastic injection and printing of the board are probably not happening in the same factory anyway. It would be relatively inexpensive and bring down the overall cost of the printing since they'd be printing more.
 
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Thomas Patrick
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canada_doug wrote:
They could make the standees on a few sheets of cardboard and tag on the whole run with a reprint of the full game. The plastic injection and printing of the board are probably not happening in the same factory anyway. It would be relatively inexpensive and bring down the overall cost of the printing since they'd be printing more.


They could do a lot of things, but one thing Poots seems pretty intent on not doing is sacrificing his vision, and since it began as a miniatures company, miniatures are pretty central to his vision.

Also, having a cardboard standee on a 150 millimeter diameter stand would look a bit silly.

I wouldn't hold my breathe on a version ever being released without miniatures. The closest you could get is if they sell off surplus stock of the reprint that contains the rest of the game components without miniatures like they did a month or two ago.
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Will Martin
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Darkson wrote:
Monster is a "boutique miniature" game not a mass market game, regardless of the untapped market the miniature free game experience is not part of the designers vision of the game. Therefore not a target market or audience.


Fair enough on the target audience bit.
 
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Steve Trewartha
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I wonder if it is even financially viable to sell it without miniatures for $100. The initial design/casting is very expensive but then reproducing more plastic isn't too bad, while 1000+ high quality cards and a full colour rulebook plus the cardboard pieces isn't exactly cheap to print off. Higher volumes also means more troubleshooting/support for when some copies have cards missing or damaged.
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Victory Games (?) said that standees cost them as much as miniatures. Besides cardboard, the stands themselves cost money. Considering how much backlog of demand Poots has for KDM, it's not going to help making a game that increases demand. OTOH, there's always licensing.

Here's an article about mini's production. Since the molds have been made, here's how much it costs to make a mini and more complicated mini, and it's MSRP based on the cost of mold and plastic. From the MSRP, I'm inferring that these aren't boardgame plastic, but high-end models:





So, basically, with plastic, you can get a 80000% to 2500% markup.

http://massiveawesome.com/miniature-myth-busting/



From a third party, you can get card stands for $.08 each (about 40% off when $.15 stands are purchased bulk), 80% of the cost of Bob for the stands alone. Except if BGG'ers are only willing to pay 1/4 the price of the miniature, you need to sell *four* copies of the game as standees, compare to one copy with the miniatures.

I also don't think anyone's going to pay eight bucks for a standee.

http://spielpro.com/plastic-card-stand-rectangle-19mm-x-17mm...

That's not to say you *can't* get a standee product. Cryptozoic has a $40 standee version of its Walking Dead: No Turning Back game, meant for Big Box retail sales. Pathfinder RPG Beginner's Box uses standees. A D&D Basic Box used cardboard tokens. However, these "softcover" games were indeed meant for a larger audience, which Poots isn't ready for.
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David Tolin
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Brother Jim wrote:
...well, because it would open up the game to new buyers who aren't mini assembler gamers. Still, the points you guys make are perfectly valid and have been points I have made myslf with regard to Cthulhu Wars. Just to be clear, it isn't the price, just the gaming lifestyle that is a bar for me. I certainly am not entitled to any non-mini version, just saying how enthusiastic I would be for such a copy myself. Otherwise, I will cheer from the sidelines, happy for the success of the company and the happy gamers who enjoy the game.

Edit: spelling (though I hope I never see what an "assmebler" is - or see any assmebling done by anyone anywhere)


If assembling the minis is your only hesitation, I would gladly assemble your minis for free. I enjoy it, but it would also be worth it to know someone else gets to enjoy Kingdom Death.
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Sam and Max wrote:
Victory Games (?) said that standees cost them as much as miniatures. Besides cardboard, the stands themselves cost money. Considering how much backlog of demand Poots has for KDM, it's not going to help making a game that increases demand. OTOH, there's always licensing.

Here's an article about mini's production. Since the molds have been made, here's how much it costs to make a mini and more complicated mini, and it's MSRP based on the cost of mold and plastic. From the MSRP, I'm inferring that these aren't boardgame plastic, but high-end models:





So, basically, with plastic, you can get a 80000% to 2500% markup.

http://massiveawesome.com/miniature-myth-busting/



From a third party, you can get card stands for $.08 each (about 40% off when $.15 stands are purchased bulk), 80% of the cost of Bob for the stands alone. Except if BGG'ers are only willing to pay 1/4 the price of the miniature, you need to sell *four* copies of the game as standees, compare to one copy with the miniatures.

I also don't think anyone's going to pay eight bucks for a standee.

http://spielpro.com/plastic-card-stand-rectangle-19mm-x-17mm...

That's not to say you *can't* get a standee product. Cryptozoic has a $40 standee version of its Walking Dead: No Turning Back game, meant for Big Box retail sales. Pathfinder RPG Beginner's Box uses standees. A D&D Basic Box used cardboard tokens. However, these "softcover" games were indeed meant for a larger audience, which Poots isn't ready for.


The "massiveawesome" article was well worth the read... now multiply each metal die by the number of miniatures in KD:M... I'm not sure if Adam broke even yet... Probably doing well on the resins though.
 
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Emmit Svenson
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I hope Poots continues to focus his time and energy on developing new high quality game content and components for the Kingdom Death setting, rather than spinning out less impressive stuff trying to chase a mass market.

As things are, he has a brand and a niche and a devoted following. Reprints of the base game to grow that incrementally is a great idea--more owners of base KD means more market for the expansions that haven't sold out yet. Taking time away from other projects to develop a not-all-that-less-expensive non-miniature version seems like a misstep to me.
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Steve Trewartha
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emmit svenson wrote:
As things are, he has a brand and a niche and a devoted following. Reprints of the base game to grow that incrementally is a great idea--more owners of base KD means more market for the expansions that haven't sold out yet. Taking time away from other projects to develop a not-all-that-less-expensive non-miniature version seems like a misstep to me.


On that note, if a no miniature version was made, would those consumers then want a non-miniature version of all of the expansions? I doubt that would be at all viable.
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chris thatcher
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I agree with the op. They should do a tokens version, not standee, and then sell the miniatures separately as upgrades.

Of course it's his choice but without that option I would not buy the game, far to much outlay in one go, but if I could upgrade over time, yeah maybe.

If not, no loss, plenty of other great games.
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