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Subject: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow? rss

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Colin Nordstrom
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I watched the Board Game Brawl review and I'm a little hesitant to break open my KS copy. I'm not overly concerned with the lack of story arc, but I am concerned with his complaint of the game's fiddliness.

Are there a lot of unintuitive, fiddly rules to remember throughout the game that mess with it's flow? Nick's game tastes are very similar to mine and I'm a little concerned with how underwhelmed he was.
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Danny Lamprey
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
I played two games thus far (both as the Sin player) and found there was a few little things I forgot to remember in the first playthrough but found the second one much easier. I thought it flowed well, I thought it was balanced nicely (one game was a two player, one was a four player) between the Sin and the F.A.I.T.H. agents. The only thing that really hung me up was the setup/breakdown time. Like a lot of Lang's/CMON's games there are a lot of components to keep track of and have all over the table...

I say this but Nick and I's tastes are very different. I didn't find anything too fiddly though.
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Leonard Leonardo
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
I think Nick went into the mindset that it's an adventure game and not a "horror boardgame as Eric Lang described. IMHO the "Lack of flow" is by design and the game is supposed to create suspense with the sins player reacting during unexpected times, making players adjust their plans constantly.

If you know. When the sins player will react, I think the game would lose a fair bit of suspense and identity.

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Kent
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
No, it is not fiddly at all, IMO. There are a few rules to remember the first time that you play that aren't on the reference sheet on the back page of the manual. Simpler than most medium weight board games, IMO.

Any criticisms by the reviewer that you mentioned tend to be fickle and unreliable in my experience. Hearing such a concern by him would indicate that a game actually has depth, IMO.

Edit: Not sure how anyone could accuse this game of not having an in-your-face story and theme, either!
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Felipe Bulhões
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
His favorite game is Kingdom Death. The others can't be more fiddly than that. The game simply didn't click with him and he tried to make something up to justify it, because he need it for the review.
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Oden Dee
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
Theme of game is awesome. Game that doesn't look like its made for 10 year olds.

Not fiddly in the slightest, game designed to be simple and fast. The base rules are so simple. Not fiddly, eg. You don't need to keep track of Monster health. Minimal use of counters.

Flow issues! No. The innovation of Sin Reaction tokens is great. Sin doesn't have to move 13 Monsters at the end of every turn, which puts players to sleep.

Its a scary horror game and the unexpected surprise of a reaction or sin card fulfils this.

No Campaign mode. I don't have time for campaigns, and they are fiddly.
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Flavio Santos
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
Coiote wrote:
His favorite game is Kingdom Death. The others can't be more fiddly than that. The game simply didn't click with him and he tried to make something up to justify it, because he need it for the review.


My thoughts exactly. It did look like he was struggling to find a reason to dislike the game. It just was not his cup of tea.
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karlo arciaga
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
If you compare it to other games of its kind (Descent, Zombicide, Last night on Earth, I think Nick is comparing apples to oranges in a sense.

It sounded like game 'flow' was an expectation. With Eric Lang's recent track record of game designs, asymmetry has been his flavor of the month and the abrupt and 'staccato' nature that Nick describes it is definitely something unique to TO7S. Instead of framing your actions with some kind of expectation in mind (like in zombicide where you frame actions in expectations of programmed movement), you need to deduce which actions will cause the sin player to play certain types of cards. Remember, the sin player recycles his deck once all his sin cards are used - which with time, you will get a better sense of how the sin player will behave.

He also commented on the story element of the game. Perhaps he thought it wasnt so pervasive throughout the map because there is SO MUCH to do on the map. Design wise, it feels like (to me) that if you lose sight of the game map objectives too long, you will fall behind on objectives even though you and your fellow FAITH team members feel as if you have gotten some more control over the map.
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Wayne Shepherdson
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
I think the fiddly part is only remembering what tokens have what effect as well as remembering the sin/acolyte abilities and apocalypse track bonus. I don't think its that bad.

Other than that is the book keeping for the heroes, counting up the hits+ equipment bonus+ corruption track bonus and deciding what to use the wild dice for.
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Colin Nordstrom
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
Thanks guys. I went into this KS blindly. I love Eric's designs. Leap of faith, after I whiffed on the amazing Blood Rage campaign. I hate putting a lot of stock in any one reviewer, but there has been such little gameplay/review info on this game.
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Flavio Santos
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
evidence wrote:
Thanks guys. I went into this KS blindly. I love Eric's designs. Leap of faith, after I whiffed on the amazing Blood Rage campaign. I hate putting a lot of stock in any one reviewer, but there has been such little gameplay/review info on this game.


In the end, it's just an opinion. You may love the game. Try to play it somewhere else before opening your pledge.
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Max Maloney
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Portland
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"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason." -Jack Handey
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
evidence wrote:
Thanks guys. I went into this KS blindly. I love Eric's designs. Leap of faith, after I whiffed on the amazing Blood Rage campaign. I hate putting a lot of stock in any one reviewer, but there has been such little gameplay/review info on this game.

Marco Arnaudo is not a super-high profile reviewer, but he's been doing them a long time on BGG. His reviews are thoughtful and well-explained and he gave it high praise.
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Geoff ...
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
OP: Suggest a question mark be added to the thread topic. I came in here thinking "wow the game is crap, let's find out why".
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Jurn de Ruijter
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
I am a bit perplexed though that you are considering not to open your pledge with a board game from a designer you love containing amazing goodies, based on the opinion of a single reviewer...

Why not find out for yourself if the game is great or not? Isn't that part of the fun?
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Christian Letourneau
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
Deacis wrote:
I am a bit perplexed though that you are considering not to open your pledge with a board game from a designer you love containing amazing goodies, based on the opinion of a single reviewer...

Why not find out for yourself if the game is great or not? Isn't that part of the fun?


The game will have more resell value if it is still in shrink...
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Christian Letourneau
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
Coiote wrote:
His favorite game is Kingdom Death. The others can't be more fiddly than that. The game simply didn't click with him and he tried to make something up to justify it, because he need it for the review.


My experience with this reviewer also which is why I do not watch his reviews anymore.
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Sebastian Beck
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
Nick also found B-Sieged fiddly which has a perfect smooth flow of play.

So I would not hesitate to open your box.
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J M
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
Dormammu wrote:
evidence wrote:
Thanks guys. I went into this KS blindly. I love Eric's designs. Leap of faith, after I whiffed on the amazing Blood Rage campaign. I hate putting a lot of stock in any one reviewer, but there has been such little gameplay/review info on this game.

Marco Arnaudo is not a super-high profile reviewer, but he's been doing them a long time on BGG. His reviews are thoughtful and well-explained and he gave it high praise.


I got the sense that Marco was responding to similar concerns as BGB's review when he took time to explain that he enjoyed this not being a game about leveling up characters (a "power fantasy"), but rather having to sacrifice them. Nick seemed frustrated that he couldn't power up his characters and run around the board like a boss.

The game can run long with indecisive players- three hours for a learning game was my experience, but it was an enjoyable time and "flow" was not a problem.
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Patrick McGee
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
Couldn't agree more with what most folks have said. The game is great and not too fiddly. I also believe that Nick went in with his own expectations of what the game should be instead of evaluating it on its own merits. This is not a typical one vs. many boardgame in that it doesn't have structured turns for the Sins. They "react" to the heroes when they choose to vs. having a set turn order for them. Makes the game feel unpredictable for the heroes, which is how it should be in a survival horror genre.
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Patrick Reynolds
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
while it's true that you don't level up during the game, the heroes certainly can get very powerful, via a few different methods.

First, and most common, are the upgrades. They are plentiful and very strong, with many of them granting extra dice for combat, extra defensive icons in combat or other powerful perks. And they're not limited in any way, so if you want to outfit your hero with three guns and two swords, you can, and you can use them all, all the time! We had PHD running around with 6 automatic blocks before dice rolls whenever monsters attacked him in one game (3 from his ability and 3 from gear). That felt pretty powerful to me.

Second, taking corruption for the temporary bonuses. In the last game I played, Karl the werewolf was my starting hero and I ended the game with him as well. We needed to cleanse pentagrams from monster-free spaces and the only space left on the board with any in it was the space that our Sins player was stacking monsters like crazy. We decided to send Karl in there on a suicide mission to hopefully clear out some of the mess and make it easier for the other heroes to come in and clean up. So Karl wolfed out, went in, took full corruption, and wrecked shop so completely that I think everyone at the table was surprised. I had good rolls, which helped (I think I had 4 or 5 total Faith results) but Sins were rolling dice for a controller, 3 abominations and 3 acolytes, which is 19 dice before burst add-ins. Karl cleared half the room and took 1 damage.

Finally, secondary effects such as the commissioner token (+1 die in combat), the hacktivist (ignore 1 fire and 1 corruption damage when moving) and other heroes in your space (+1 die from each).

Put all of that together and you can easily have a hero who at the start of the game would roll 3 or 4 dice in a fight turn into an absolute boss who can walk into a room and throw 10 dice just a few turns later. It might not be called "leveling up" but really, what's the difference?
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Kevin Hann
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Re: Fiddliness and Lack of Flow
Coiote wrote:
His favorite game is Kingdom Death. The others can't be more fiddly than that. The game simply didn't click with him and he tried to make something up to justify it, because he need it for the review.


Also he loved Super Dungeon Explore 2nd Edition, yet The Others is too fiddly? Really? Soda Pop Miniatures have pretty much admitted that SDE 2.0 rules are a massive fail. Ever since then, I don't trust Nick's reviews.
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Colin Nordstrom
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Geoff wrote:
OP: Suggest a question mark be added to the thread topic. I came in here thinking "wow the game is crap, let's find out why".


Question mark added.
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Chris Schafer
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Just watched Nick's review last night and he lost me when he said he didn't like the art. Are you kidding me. The art is twisted but it's amazing.
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Scott Lewis
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I found the game fiddly, not in the interruption sense but keeping track of all the bonuses and penalties that players have vs. what the DM has. The interruption breakage I thought was a nice touch, but the game itself is a bit by-the-numbers and not terribly interesting. It felt sort a lot like Zombicide with a lot more, but the more didn't make the game that much better. I do think it is interesting that the DM is an active player in the game rather than a guide who is trying to play to win as well.
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Colin Nordstrom
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DeftMunky wrote:
I found the game fiddly, not in the interruption sense but keeping track of all the bonuses and penalties that players have vs. what the DM has. The interruption breakage I thought was a nice touch, but the game itself is a bit by-the-numbers and not terribly interesting. It felt sort a lot like Zombicide with a lot more, but the more didn't make the game that much better. I do think it is interesting that the DM is an active player in the game rather than a guide who is trying to play to win as well.


Thanks Scott. This is what I'm talking about. I define what Scott says here as fiddly. Keeping track of this bonus and that penalty, where you spend as much time bookkeeping as you do playing. There is nothing worse when you complete a combat and forget to do this ability or that thing. Many people don't consider Descent fiddly, but I do. I sold the game because I was tired of keeping track of all my heroes' abilities and all the crazy details built into the game. If people who have posted above don't think Descent is fiddly (under my definition), then I will probably view The Others as fiddly. I love Blood Rage because it is such a clean, intuitive design.
 
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