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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Rules

Subject: Critical Wound =/= Wound? rss

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Jonathan Er
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I just got into KDM and i must say the experience is AMAZING!

So i was reading through the KDM website about updates to lantern hoard and etc, and i stumbled upon this note on one of the updates

"A thrown founding stone, is 100% useless against the Butcher. It will automatically hit, then fail to cause a critical wound."

Now, i understand that cards without the critical wound icon cannot be critically wounded, but does that mean that no wound is then caused? And i have failed to wound the monster?
I have been playing it as i do wound the monster but it triggers no critical wound effect since none is listed. Have i been playing it correctly?

If so, then the statement is kind of misleading as the founding stone would then not be 100% useless against the Butcher? It would at least immediately cause one wound?

For those who are trying to look the statement up, it is on the 19th April Community Spotlight update

 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Ok, I will keep this short for the sake of clarity.
When you perform a critical, you do not wound unless there is a "Critical Wound" section on the card.

So, the Butcher pre-1.4 is fully immune to criticals, while on 1.4 it has exactly one spot that can be critted (luckily, it has very few hit locations and they get reshuffled, so you should be able to hit it a couple of times during the showdown).

This is purely intentional, and unfortunately it is a thing that is not clear unless you make an example, a thing that sadly lacks in the manual (I guess to keep it spoiler free).
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Jonathan Er
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t3clis wrote:
Ok, I will keep this short for the sake of clarity.
When you perform a critical, you do not wound unless there is a "Critical Wound" section on the card.

So, the Butcher pre-1.4 is fully immune to criticals, while on 1.4 it has exactly one spot that can be critted (luckily, it has very few hit locations and they get reshuffled, so you should be able to hit it a couple of times during the showdown).

This is purely intentional, and unfortunately it is a thing that is not clear unless you make an example, a thing that sadly lacks in the manual (I guess to keep it spoiler free).


Wow, that is certainly news to me
I always thought that a natural lantern 10 would always result in a hit or a wound, so hearing that a lantern 10 that is also a critical wound would not even wound if the HL has no critical hit location is quite a shock

Thematically it also makes no sense to me unfortunately
Why would a critical wound not even wound the monster just because the HL doesnt have a critical hit location
A wound is a wound, a critical wound is better than a wound?

Gonna have to run this through with the lads and see how they feel about this. Haha
Well, at least we only played 4 years so far. Gonna have to do it right for the rest of the game
 
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François Mahieu
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Jion wrote:
t3clis wrote:
Ok, I will keep this short for the sake of clarity.
When you perform a critical, you do not wound unless there is a "Critical Wound" section on the card.

So, the Butcher pre-1.4 is fully immune to criticals, while on 1.4 it has exactly one spot that can be critted (luckily, it has very few hit locations and they get reshuffled, so you should be able to hit it a couple of times during the showdown).

This is purely intentional, and unfortunately it is a thing that is not clear unless you make an example, a thing that sadly lacks in the manual (I guess to keep it spoiler free).


Wow, that is certainly news to me
I always thought that a natural lantern 10 would always result in a hit or a wound, so hearing that a lantern 10 that is also a critical wound would not even wound if the HL has no critical hit location is quite a shock

Thematically it also makes no sense to me unfortunately
Why would a critical wound not even wound the monster just because the HL doesnt have a critical hit location
A wound is a wound, a critical wound is better than a wound?

Gonna have to run this through with the lads and see how they feel about this. Haha
Well, at least we only played 4 years so far. Gonna have to do it right for the rest of the game


A natural 10 does wound! We're talking about crits here. One only critically hits IF there's a critical wound option on the cards. No more, no less.
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Alessio Massuoli
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Well, it IS confusing, even if it is worded carefully.

You roll a die to wound.

If it's a lantern 10, you have WOUNDED. (Example: lantern 10 to wound with an Axe a L2 Phoenix is a WOUND).

If the roll + your total strength equals or exceeds monster's toughness, you have WOUNDED. (Example: roll of 7 with a bone dagger on a L1 WL is a WOUND).

If the roll + your luck - monster's luck equals or exceeds the number required to crit (usually 10, but 9 or 10 with deadly), you performed a critical hit. For this roll, lantern 10 is not auto-crit (since critical hit is a side-effect of wounding, that means that you WOUND, but you do not CRIT). (Example: a character with -1 Luck with a bone dagger gets a lantern 10 to wound a L1 WL. You WOUNDED the monster, but you did not CRIT it).

Critical Hits have precedence over wounds, where available (example: lantern 10 on L1 WL Testes is a CRIT, you cannot choose to "not crit" and "wound" instead).

If you make a roll that is eligible to both crit and wound, and there is no crit location, you wound anyway. (Example: roll a 9 to wound a L1 Butcher with Lion Beast Katars is both a wound and a crit. Let's say that you hit something that has no crit, you wound it instead because your roll is eligible to wound).

The problem with Founding Stone is that it explicitly says that it causes a "Critical", not that it "automatically hits, wounds, and causes a critical".

Is it clear this way?


On the use of founding stones (ranked from most interesting use to least interesting, but still IMHO and anyway all legit uses):
1. Ensure that you do not have your Starting Survivors severly Injured.
2. Kill (or knock down with surge and the appropriate HL) the Nemesis (except Butcher) that is badly wounded but nonetheless has the upper hand in your encounter.
3. Stone the final boss (trying not to spoil here) to death.
4. Crit-farm some interesting resources from some quarries.

Founding stones are very limited, even if in a 20-25 LY campaign you can expect to acquire one to four more than your initial supply (I stocked them in my first campaign because I read in this forum that they were useful, ended up OWNING the final boss and well, it was underwhelming never tried this anymore after that).
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Jonathan Er
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Yes i got it now!

If a weapon lets me perform a critical, it doesnt guarantee a wound if there is no critical hit location

If i roll a critical (modifiers taken into consideration), then it will perform a critical wound if the HL allows, if not, it will simply wound the monster


Thanks!
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Jion wrote:

If i roll a critical (modifiers taken into consideration), then it will perform a critical wound if the HL allows, if not, it will simply wound the monster


Not exactly, if you roll a critical, it will perform a critical wound if the HL allows, if not, it will wound IF AND ONLY IF your roll is enough to wound.
(Example, with minor gear spoiler: survivor with +1 Luck and a Death mask (so, a total +5 luck with no affinities) tries to wound a L1 Butcher with a Bone Dagger and rolls a 5. Check the critical: 5+5=10, critical wound on the butcher. But the butcher HL has no critical text, so you cannot crit. Check if you wound: 5+1(Bone Dagger strength)=6 NOT ENOUGH to wound. So, in this case, you do not crit and do not wound).
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Jonathan Er
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t3clis wrote:
Jion wrote:

If i roll a critical (modifiers taken into consideration), then it will perform a critical wound if the HL allows, if not, it will simply wound the monster


Not exactly, if you roll a critical, it will perform a critical wound if the HL allows, if not, it will wound IF AND ONLY IF your roll is enough to wound.
(Example, with minor gear spoiler: survivor with +1 Luck and a Death mask (so, a total +5 luck with no affinities) tries to wound a L1 Butcher with a Bone Dagger and rolls a 5. Check the critical: 5+5=10, critical wound on the butcher. But the butcher HL has no critical text, so you cannot crit. Check if you wound: 5+1(Bone Dagger strength)=6 NOT ENOUGH to wound. So, in this case, you do not crit and do not wound).


Thanks for that!
Yes thats how i understood it, but didnt phrase it right, haha

Looking forward to my next plays (whenever that is..)
 
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Christian Vogler
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Thank you for the clarification but means this in your example above, that i can crit a Monster without wound it?? Therefore the hit triggers only the crit-effect without discard an AI-Card?
 
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François Mahieu
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Is it a joke!?

If you wound, you do wound!
If you critically wound, you do wound as well! Furthermore you might do a critical if the cards says so!
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Bibliothekar wrote:
Thank you for the clarification but means this in your example above, that i can crit a Monster without wound it?? Therefore the hit triggers only the crit-effect without discard an AI-Card?


If the HL can be critted, you can cause a critical wound by Luck even if you cannot cause a wound by strength. Please note that when you cause a wound, critical or not, you always discard AI.
(example (similar to above): survivor with +1 Luck and a Death mask (so, a total +5 luck with no affinities) tries to wound a L1 WHITE LION with a Bone Dagger and rolls a 5. Check the critical: 5+5=10, critical wound on the White Lion. In this case, you stop and resolve the critical wound (discard one AI as usual (provided there's AI to discard, and the weapon is not devastating or savage), then resolve the rest of the critical text)).

Ehe, I liked better the quick answer

EDIT: of course, in the example, you would NOT have wounded the WL by just using strength, since 5+1=6, not enough to wound.
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Alessio Massuoli
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poifpoif wrote:
Is it a joke!?

If you wound, you do wound!
If you critically wound, you do wound as well! Furthermore you might do a critical if the cards says so!


Not a joke... except for the occasional misspelling, the rules stand exactly as I described in all the examples

It has been discussed thoroughly in the Rules section (I think about one year ago), it pops up every time and it's rather complex to explain without examples, but this is exactly as written and as intended. There is also some of this on the official FAQ, regarding the Founding Stone.

And, also, I suspect that the older-than-me and wiser-than-me members of this forum explicitly avoided to answer the cascade of questions that always come out from this subject

Anyway, I did my share of errors, so I can stand corrected as anyone else... But this part should be clear enough at this time.
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Christian Vogler
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Okay - thanks! cool
 
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Adrien Boyeldieu
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Jion wrote:
So i was reading through the KDM website about updates to lantern hoard and etc, and i stumbled upon this note on one of the updates

"A thrown founding stone, is 100% useless against the Butcher. It will automatically hit, then fail to cause a critical wound."


The confusion I think is because the Founding Stone auto-crit is a special ability, not part of an attack. If you remember it that way, it helps to make sense about why it doesn't do anything if there's no crit on the hit location.
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