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Leaving Earth» Forums » Rules

Subject: When are hazards faced? rss

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A L D A R O N
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The rules (v4j) say that hazards are faced at the point a spacecraft token is moved to (as opposed to actually arriving at) a destination:

Quote:
Once you have moved your spacecraft token to its destination, the spacecraft faces that maneuver’s hazards in order

But the flowchart at the back of the rules shows radiation happening before moving to the destination and other hazards happening only after time tokens are removed.

Which is correct?
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Robert Manning
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The timing of the Solar Radiation hazard and the physical movement of the spacecraft is effectively simultaneous; but check the radiation hazard first. The hazards faced in your quoted section are the destination location hazards (reentry, landing, surface conditions); it isn't intended to refer to the travel hazard (radiation).
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Michel Kangro
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As a similar question:

When and with which turns money are hazards after time-token-maneuvers dealt with?

IIRC: Removing the time tokens is one of the last actions before advancing the year. In the maneuver flow chart it says that once the last time token is removed, the craft faces the maneuvers hazards, say, landing as on Phobos.

Now say I want to remove the landing outcome card - do I have to lay aside money from the turn before that last time token was removed or did my funds get replenished before?
 
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Robert Manning
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Immediately upon removing the last time token; so yes, funds need to be laid aside. See Landing on Phobos and Ceres.
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Michel Kangro
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TY!
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rmanning wrote:
The timing of the Solar Radiation hazard and the physical movement of the spacecraft is effectively simultaneous; but check the radiation hazard first. The hazards faced in your quoted section are the destination location hazards (reentry, landing, surface conditions); it isn't intended to refer to the travel hazard (radiation).

That still means that one or both of the quoted section and flowchart are wrong or incomplete.

 
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Larry L
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Aldaron wrote:
rmanning wrote:
The timing of the Solar Radiation hazard and the physical movement of the spacecraft is effectively simultaneous; but check the radiation hazard first. The hazards faced in your quoted section are the destination location hazards (reentry, landing, surface conditions); it isn't intended to refer to the travel hazard (radiation).

That still means that one or both of the quoted section and flowchart are wrong or incomplete.



The rules also state that solar radiation is rolled at the start of the maneuver. "Astronauts only face radiation at the start of the maneuver." So probably the section you quote is incorrect.
 
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mideg wrote:
As a similar question:

When and with which turns money are hazards after time-token-maneuvers dealt with?

IIRC: Removing the time tokens is one of the last actions before advancing the year. In the maneuver flow chart it says that once the last time token is removed, the craft faces the maneuvers hazards, say, landing as on Phobos.

Now say I want to remove the landing outcome card - do I have to lay aside money from the turn before that last time token was removed or did my funds get replenished before?


Removing time tokens wraps up the start of the new year, not the end. You have your fresh cash in hand, so you don't need to save anything.

Hmm.... ummm.... No, I think I'm wrong. I see two versions in my rules. The rules have time token removal happen at the end of the start of the year (after money). They also have time token removed at the end of the year (before money).

Urk.
 
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RingelTree wrote:
Aldaron wrote:
rmanning wrote:
The timing of the Solar Radiation hazard and the physical movement of the spacecraft is effectively simultaneous; but check the radiation hazard first. The hazards faced in your quoted section are the destination location hazards (reentry, landing, surface conditions); it isn't intended to refer to the travel hazard (radiation).

That still means that one or both of the quoted section and flowchart are wrong or incomplete.



The rules also state that solar radiation is rolled at the start of the maneuver. "Astronauts only face radiation at the start of the maneuver." So probably the section you quote is incorrect.

Agreed.

So (contrary to the quoted rule), no hazards are faced when you've "moved your spacecraft token to its destination". Instead:
(1) radiation happens at the start the move (as in the flowchart; though as rmanning says that's effectively simultaneous, so a just minor error); and,
(2) other hazards happen at the completion of the maneuver (i.e., notably, removal of time tokens; so *not* when the token is moved to the location card).
 
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RingelTree wrote:
The rules have time token removal happen at the end of the start of the year (after money).

Can you show where that is?
 
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Robert Manning
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rules wrote:
Once you have moved your spacecraft token to its destination, the spacecraft faces that maneuver’s hazards in order
Aldaron wrote:
So (contrary to the quoted rule), no hazards are faced when you've "moved your spacecraft token to its destination".
All maneuvers that are not multi-year conform to the quoted rule (e.g., Mars Orbit to Mars). With the exception of the Solar Radiation hazard, all but two multi-year maneuvers also conform to it.

Look at it as a general rule for which there are two special cases -- both described in other sections of the rules and in practice applicable only to multi-year maneuvers:

• Solar Radiation which is resolved immediately and before any time tokens are removed.

• Other hazards which are resolved "Once you have moved your spacecraft token to its destination" -- but also only after any and all time tokens have been removed.

***

As for the timing of removing time tokens, that's normally the very last thing that happens each year (aside from resolving any resulting impacts).
 
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rmanning wrote:
All maneuvers that are not multi-year conform to the quoted rule

Yes, because, more comprehensively: "(2) other hazards happen at the completion of the maneuver" (which corresponds to token movement for non-multiyear maneuvers).

That is, a better general rule that didn't have exceptions scattered around, and that matched the flowchart, would simply be:

Quote:
A spacecraft faces radiation hazards when its token moves, and other hazards in order, once its maneuver is completed.
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Michel Kangro
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I'd like to attach the question to this thread again: If a multi-year maneuver includes a maneuver hazard (other then radiation), am I able to use the funds of the year that starts with the removal of the last time token or do I have to reserve funds from the year before, possibly wasting funds, to remove outcome cards?

I am re-asking this question because Joe posted a new version of the rules that was supposed to clarify this, but in my opinion doesn't. Maybe that's just me, though. :-)

Here's what the new rules say on this matter:
On Funding, p. 14:
Quote:
At the beginning of each year, all space agencies
receive their annual funding. Each agency
turns in any money it has left from the previous
year, then receives $25 in funding.


On the end-of-year, as the two last steps:
Quote:
3. Move the calendar marker to the next year. If the next year is off
the end of the calendar, the game ends at this time.
4. Remove one time token from each spacecraft that has any. When
the last time token is removed from a spacecraft, it may face hazards
upon arrival (such as landing on Ceres) and it may complete missions.
(See Maneuver Hazards on page 24.)


On the one hand, both 3 and 4 being at the end of the year, the new year's fund might not be avaiable. Then again, step 3 is moving the calendar marker, triggering a new year, thus triggering the funding quoted above. That's how I read this, anyway.
 
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Joe Fatula
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Getting new funding happens at the start of the year.
Moving the calendar marker and removing time tokens happen at the end of the year.

Don't mix the two, and you'll have no trouble.

In other words, if you arrive somewhere at the end of the year, you'll only have whatever money you didn't spend from earlier.
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Michel Kangro
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buffalohat wrote:
Getting new funding happens at the start of the year.
Moving the calendar marker and removing time tokens happen at the end of the year.

Don't mix the two, and you'll have no trouble.

In other words, if you arrive somewhere at the end of the year, you'll only have whatever money you didn't spend from earlier.


Thanks for the explanation.

Still, this bothers me some. Maybe I will house rule this the other way around. I was thinking about moving Life Support to the start of year, too, in order to avoid the loss of funds from the wrong outcome card.
 
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mideg wrote:
buffalohat wrote:
Getting new funding happens at the start of the year.
Moving the calendar marker and removing time tokens happen at the end of the year.

Don't mix the two, and you'll have no trouble.

In other words, if you arrive somewhere at the end of the year, you'll only have whatever money you didn't spend from earlier.


Thanks for the explanation.

Still, this bothers me some. Maybe I will house rule this the other way around. I was thinking about moving Life Support to the start of year, too, in order to avoid the loss of funds from the wrong outcome card.

If you do that, I recommend doing something else to make Life Support more expensive, like adding an extra outcome card to it, or charging more to research it.
 
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Robert Manning
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buffalohat wrote:
mideg wrote:
buffalohat wrote:
Getting new funding happens at the start of the year.
Moving the calendar marker and removing time tokens happen at the end of the year.

Don't mix the two, and you'll have no trouble.

In other words, if you arrive somewhere at the end of the year, you'll only have whatever money you didn't spend from earlier.


Thanks for the explanation.

Still, this bothers me some. Maybe I will house rule this the other way around. I was thinking about moving Life Support to the start of year, too, in order to avoid the loss of funds from the wrong outcome card.

If you do that, I recommend doing something else to make Life Support more expensive, like adding an extra outcome card to it, or charging more to research it.
How about: A player may pay to remove an outcome card, or the the outcome card may be returned face-up to the top of the advancement's outcome deck. The face-up outcome card may be removed at any later time but at double the removal cost. Only the most recently drawn outcome card may be kept up, prior face-up cards having been reshuffled into the deck.
 
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