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jcgonzmo 84
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Please explain
 
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Colm McCarthy
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Re: Which game is more complicated, Android Netrunner, Twilight Struggle or Agricola?
Complicated or complex?

I think both Agricola and TS are complex games, but neither is complicated. They both have quite straightforward rulesets.

I can't comment on AN.
 
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jcgonzmo 84
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Re: Which game is more complicated, Android Netrunner, Twilight Struggle or Agricola?
You are right. complex is the right word. Which one between Agricola and TS? and why?
 
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Curt Carpenter
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All fairly comparable, in that they have relatively simple cores, but voluminous FAQs to cover the details on the zillions of cards. Agricola is probably the least offensive in terms of FAQ required to fully understand each card. AN and TS both required multiple iterations of the core rules to make them comprehensible. I suspect that latest versions in box are fine though.
 
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Erin
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Can't comment on Twilight Struggle.

Agricola requires thought and learning, but I wouldn't say it's overly complex.

AN is complex, in my opinion. There's a lot of information out there about it, and a huge number of different card combos, variations, etc. Players can master it, but to know every card, plus all its effects, plus appropriate counter measures, plus alternatives (and so on) takes time and effort.
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Matt Watkins
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And I can't comment on Netrunner.

Both Agricola and TS require some knowledge of the card deck to formulate winning strategies, but I'd say that with Agricola, the basic game mechanics are bigger contributors to the strategy you develop, with the cards nudging it here and there. In other words, if you know the rules to Agricola, you can play effectively, though you might not be able to win tournaments without a good knowledge of the cards.

Not so with Twilight Struggle. If you don't know the deck, and all of the deck, you will play like a fool until you do. You flat will not be able to win or even make headway against someone who does know the cards, and you can easily lose the game outright by making a seemingly innocuous play. TS is very rewarding--it's a great, fun game--and it's not too hard to learn the deck if you don't mind losing a few games, but the effective strategies don't emerge from the rules; they emerge from the cards. I think it's the more complex of the two as a result.
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Garth Tams
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boldl wrote:
I would say Netrunner is the most complex due to the nature of the system itself. Card count, deck building, etc... when added on top of the game mechanics and decisions in game (similar in scope to Agricola and Twilight Struggle), you end up with a much more complex game.

All three have significant complexity once you're actually into the gameplay itself. Only two of the three are worth playing though.


I would say that Twilight Struggle is the hardest on the head, but not because it is so complex. You have a hand of cards that you have to play from and they can all hammer you. Pretty straight forward, but damage control is very tough on the head.

Agricola is not really complex or complicated, but rather more a puzzle. You need to do x before y so you can d z ect. Maybe that makes it complex, but to me it is a timing game that can be tough to gauge.

Netrunner I cannot comment on.
 
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Matt Logan
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If the OP is defining complex as having the most rules overhead, I would think Netrunner is the most complex hands down. Deck building games in general have their own language and system of keywords. You also have to learn the rules of the game, only to have thousands of cards that have their own rules, which typically break the core game rules. That's just playing the game. There's also the whole aspect of building/tuning your deck, which is done prior to playing.

As far as "deepness", which to me is the size of the decision matrix, they're probably close to equal in my opinion.
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Zee Deveel
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Netrunner isn't especially complicated. It takes a while to grasp how to play it well, the gameplay is very unusual so it's difficult to know what optimal moves are and you'll find yourself kinda bumbling around. The rules themselves aren't daunting.

There is a tonne of room for strategy in Netrunner, the skillcap is huge, almost like poker.
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jcgonzmo 84
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I guess the correct question would be, which one is HARDEST and which one is the EASIEST to learn how to play.
 
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Christian Moura
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jcgonzmo wrote:
I guess the correct question would be, which one is HARDEST and which one is the EASIEST to learn how to play.


Having played all three, I would say

1 - Agricola (easiest)
2 - Twilight Struggle
3 - Android Netrunner (hardest)

But I would also say that I can easily teach a newbie how to play TS or AN in half an hour.
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Anders Isaksen
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Android Netrunner by far. Mainly due to the fact that it uses alot of different words for known mechanics.
Its all for the flavor and theme I guess but it adds complexity.

Agricola and TS are very straight forward.
 
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Nick Rice
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jcgonzmo wrote:
I guess the correct question would be, which one is HARDEST and which one is the EASIEST to learn how to play.


Agricola is the easiest to learn - not too complex and very intuitive to play

Netrunner is the hardest to learn - a number of unusual mechanics mean beginners often make unwitting rules mistakes (even with just Core set)

TS - somewhere between the two, not helped by a badly structured, unhelpfully verbose rulebook
 
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jcgonzmo 84
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So If I would like to learn how to play TS, what video should I watch?
 
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Anders Isaksen
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jcgonzmo wrote:
So If I would like to learn how to play TS, what video should I watch?


Strictly for learning purposes this is the best video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFfVqRmDLkI
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corum irsei
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NickRice wrote:
Agricola is the easiest to learn - not too complex and very intuitive to play
How does Caverna compare to Agricola? I really have difficulties to remember all the rules, e.g. regarding the animal placement / requirements or the raids.
NickRice wrote:
Netrunner is the hardest to learn - a number of unusual mechanics mean beginners often make unwitting rules mistakes (even with just Core set)
I read that a lot, and always wonder about it, especially the complains about the 'lingo'. Imho, Netrunner is one of the easiest to learn LCGs. It's very clearly structured and there's few ways to react on an opponent's turn.
NickRice wrote:
TS - somewhere between the two, not helped by a badly structured, unhelpfully verbose rulebook
Ah, what? I strongly have to disagree with that. Imho, GMT publishes the best rule books, period. Very logically structured and brilliantly indexed. What isn't always clear is the interaction / effect of some cards.

So, my ranking would be:
Easiest: Netrunner
Average: TS
Tricky: Caverna (Agricola may be easier, but I haven't played it, yet)
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Kasper Lauest
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jcgonzmo wrote:
I guess the correct question would be, which one is HARDEST and which one is the EASIEST to learn how to play.

These are three of the best games ever made if you ask me so they are ALL worth the while and very very different from each other.

Android: Netrunner is the hardest to learn, but it becomes much easier if you have somebody teach it to you instead of trying to learn from the manual. Second best option is to watch some videos. Don't try to just learn from the manual. The game is fantastic.

Twilight Struggle is fairly easy to wrap your head around. The depth of the game largely comes from all the possibilities offered from the cards. The game is fantastic.

Agricola is easy enough to understand if you know the worker placement mechanism. The family variant is very vanilla and can be easily taught. The full version is more complex, but I would still say that it is the easiest of these three games overall. The game is fantastic.
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John McD
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Does make me want to play Twilight Agricolarunner
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jcgonzmo 84
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It's worth saying that a game of TS lasts 3 hours, Agricola 1 hour and ANR 45 minutes.
 
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Nibble Wut?
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Sittingbourne
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Have played Agricola and TS with non-gaming noobs without any issues; collectible/living card games like Android tend to have their own gaming languages as well as the whole deck-building element though, which immediately adds a level of opacity.

I have seen numerous comments on how one needs to "learn the deck" for competitive play in TS, but I've never actually met anyone who takes gaming to this extreme. (Personally I'd see that as an indicator that it's time to sell the game and move onto something new, but there you go...)

Agricola is easily the most straightforward, it's worker placement with a small hand of variable powers to build your strategy around.
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jcgonzmo 84
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Do you recommend TS to play with a non gamer gf?(even though she loves Agricola)
 
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Nibble Wut?
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Sittingbourne
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jcgonzmo wrote:
Do you recommend TS to play with a non gamer gf?(even though she loves Agricola)


Based on personal experience I would not recommend introducing a non gamer gf who loves Agricola to TS. I did, she enjoyed it, I ended up proposing to her at the end of the game. Not only are weddings expensive, but so is the Collector's Edition of TS which I nabbed as an anniversary present.

Proceed with caution... ninja
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(ɹnʎʞ)
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Agricola is in my opinion (speaking relatively here) the easiest to learn and master.

Android: Netrunner is hardest to learn because of the completely asymmetrical gameplay and very own vocabulary.

Twilight Struggle is the hardest to master, because of the high amount of unique cards which behave very differently, plus the cards that are available will change over the course of the game. Memorising all the cards and when they are available is key to mastering here.


My personal ranking would be:

1. Android: Netrunner
2. Twilight Struggle
3. Agricola

Android: Netrunner wins for me, because of theme, fantastic art, 2 very asymmetrical sides (each player plays a different game), it generally plays shorter than Twilight Struggle and the game design feels very clever.
It also offers players the freedom for deck construction, which is also a huge and highly strategic part even before you are actually playing. While Twiligh Struggle also relies on bluffing, the bluffing factor has also more weight in Android: Netrunner, because the pace is faster and there are more short-term bluffs happening than long-term ones -- but they can be equally impactful.

Downside: the card pool of available cards out there is always increasing and the game can be a money sink.


Hope that made sense and was helpful to you.
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Noah Mallon
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Philadelphia
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TS may be a bit much for a non-gamer, particularly due to game length, unless they are really into the theme/history of the game.

If you want a similar experience in a shorter amount of time, w/ a bit of streamlining of the mechanics, you can give 1960: The Making of a President a try. My gf loves that game and isn't much of a gamer. Still plenty to interest a gamer, great sense of history like TS, just in a bit lighter of a package/playtime.
 
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Andrei Savva
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In the beging, all of them seem complex.
After 10 sessions - none of them feels complex.
After 30 sessions - all of them are complex again.

I will explain. I have played over 30 times Agricola and Netrunner, and 4 times Twilight Struggle (I wish I have played it more, but I don't have a partner for it).
If we are talking about the rules, all games are hard to grasp in the begining. Netrunner is so assymetrical that it is almost two different games, mechanic-wise. Agricola is easier, but when yoou throw the Ocupations and Minor Improvements on new players, those 14 additional cards tend to overwhelm them. Twilight Struggle has many mechanics - coups, realignment, Military operations, placing influence markers, scoring regions, Battleground countries vs Non-Battleground countries, plus the events of the cards themselves.
But only after a couple of plays, when the players know how to play the game mechanically, all of these games will flow relativelly smoothly. Otherwise, rules complexity would be as follows:
1. Netrunner - because of 2 different factions that have totally different gameplay, so you learn basically two rules sets, and also because of the sheer volume of content - cards bring new things to learn by themselves.
2. Agricola - The basic game rules are simpler than Twilight Struggle, but when you add the cards, you get more content and more things to learn (and yes, you need to learn and be familiar with the cards in order to play effectively).
3. Twilight Struggle -intricate mechanics (realignment anyone? how about some modifiers? Oh, you can't do realignment in Europe anymore, is Defcon 3, sucker!), many cards, many things to watch around. This game is definitely not easy to teach. The only reason why I consider it to be easier than Agricola would be because Agricola has many decks of Ocupations and Improvements to play with, going up to 5 players.

Gameplay-wise, Agricola is the heaviest, as many options result from the playboard, from Ocupations, Minor Improvements and player actions (and since Agricola plays up to 5, things can get so much more complicated with many players fighting for developing their tiny farms and not die of starvation).
The second would be Twilight Struggle, which presents many options too, while for Netrunner the gameplay would be split in deckbuilding before the game, and the game itself, which is pretty straightforward, and it is short.
But in the end, with some practice, none of the games feels heavy. I enjoy all of them all. After some sessions you start realising how many layers and nuances they have, so you really can bend it in many ways and come with unexpected moves/strategies. That makes them seem complex, but in a good way.


 
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