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Subject: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta Cycle 1 [Finished] rss

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Ben Stephenson
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This trade will be different than other math trades you've participated in. We've been running tests with it for a couple months now, it's an evolving idea and your participation and feedback are critical in improving it further. You can view the listings without having to participate if you're only curious.

If you don't know what a math trade is, please check out the math trade wiki on BGG .

If this is your first time using abecorn you can use the quick start to participate or view the whole wiki at https://abecorn.wikispaces.com

Basics:
-Users want, post items, and fill out their trade matrix just like before
-Every 6 days the trade results for all listings will automatically run.
-All of the trade loops will be split up into individual trade approval spaces.
-Users will have a 3 days to approve or reject their trade(s).
-If everyone approves a geekmessage will be sent out. Those traded items will be removed from the trade listings. Results from those trades will automatically be posted at https://www.boardgamegeek.com/guild/2679
-If anyone rejects, the trade will end and all items will be put back for trade. Not approving or rejecting a trade is considered rejecting the trade.
-For trades that are approved, the items that are given and received are removed from your matrix.
-After a trade cycle (6 days currently) is complete all of your untraded items and rejected trade items are still in queue to be traded. Your trade matrix is still filled out for those entries.

Further details to the process can be read at Perpetual Trade



We've got a feedback roadmap participants have been helping add to. Please feel free to suggest more.


Trademax 1.4 is being run with seed 12345, iterations 100

Please ask questions, make complaints, or otherwise in this discussion space or feel free to email me at info@abecorn.com
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Ben Stephenson
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship/No Ship Math Trade Beta
Cash/Gift Cards/Geek Gold ARE acceptable.

NOTE: A Math Trader who accepts a cash value trade (either in the form of GC or actual cash) is conducting a direct sale through BGG and is subject to the associated commission fee (3%) required by the BGG Terms of Service. Click here for information on how to pay the fee.
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Stephen Eckman
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship/No Ship Math Trade Beta
I am familiar with math trades and have also participated in one using abecorn. I don't understand the Ship / No Ship title.
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Ben Stephenson
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship/No Ship Math Trade Beta
steckman wrote:
I am familiar with math trades and have also participated in one using abecorn. I don't understand the Ship / No Ship title.


We're playing around with individual listings having their own shipping preferences, so you could create a game listing that only local participants could see and want.

I'll change it though for clarity.
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Matt Crawford
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
The post-trade approve/reject is interesting. How does it usually play out in your tests?

In a big trade, I would be surprised if everyone actually accepts. In the normal math trades, there's always at least one or two people who don't like the results, and if they can reject, it will essentially kill the whole thing. Does this system give people an incentive to "reach" more with their wants, and then just reject if they don't like the results?
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Justin W
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
Are sweetener-type listings possible in this application? Combined base and expansions, promos, etc are often difficult to list and trade individually.



gatchaman wrote:
The post-trade approve/reject is interesting. How does it usually play out in your tests?

In a big trade, I would be surprised if everyone actually accepts. In the normal math trades, there's always at least one or two people who don't like the results, and if they can reject, it will essentially kill the whole thing. Does this system give people an incentive to "reach" more with their wants, and then just reject if they don't like the results?


What is the net gain for someone who does this? I'm having a very hard time seeing the motivation to do this. Why ever add a want for something you don't want to trade?

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Mike Weimholt
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship/No Ship Math Trade Beta
Awesome! I'm really excited about the idea of a perpetual trade. I just hope it works.

It's an idea long past due, but I'll be interested to see how well it works out in practice. Giving everyone the ability to invalidate an entire trade loop because they don't like the results is definitely a new twist. I hope we don't end up just spinning our wheels every few days when the trade results are posted because someone keeps clicking the reject button.

Either way, count me in.
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Justin Fuhrmann
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
spamman5r wrote:
Are sweetener-type listings possible in this application? Combined base and expansions, promos, etc are often difficult to list and trade individually.



gatchaman wrote:
The post-trade approve/reject is interesting. How does it usually play out in your tests?

In a big trade, I would be surprised if everyone actually accepts. In the normal math trades, there's always at least one or two people who don't like the results, and if they can reject, it will essentially kill the whole thing. Does this system give people an incentive to "reach" more with their wants, and then just reject if they don't like the results?


What is the net gain for someone who does this? I'm having a very hard time seeing the motivation to do this. Why ever add a want for something you don't want to trade?



Sometimes people click the wrong button and accidentally mark a trade they didn't intend to. Sometimes people just don't look closely enough at an item until they actually get it in trade, then realize it's not quite what they thought it was. Sometimes it's just trader's remorse, and they were okay with a trade in theory, but not when it actually happens.

I think the possibility of one person being able to kill the whole trade by rejecting their results is not a good development. I'm concerned it could lead to less careful checking of lists because you know you have an out if you make a mistake or change your mind. There's almost always at least one person who regrets a trade.
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Justin W
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
I'm hoping the "perpetual" nature of this will treat rejections more as an individual trade loop than saying that one person can kill a 2000+ item math trade. Perhaps some sort of disincentive would help people be careful (i.e. do it too much and your trade privileges on the app are revoked).

Altogether, it's an interesting experiment I'm excited to participate.
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Ben Stephenson
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
gatchaman wrote:
The post-trade approve/reject is interesting. How does it usually play out in your tests?

In a big trade, I would be surprised if everyone actually accepts. In the normal math trades, there's always at least one or two people who don't like the results, and if they can reject, it will essentially kill the whole thing. Does this system give people an incentive to "reach" more with their wants, and then just reject if they don't like the results?


It breaks up all of the trade loops into their own approval space, so parts of the trade could get killed from one user rejecting or neglecting their part trade.

It seems length between result runs, number of rollover trades, and no ship/ship seemed to drive loop density.

With short result windows we noted there was more of an incentive to reject and hope for something better.

How would you incentivise users to avoid rejecting?
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Ben Stephenson
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
spamman5r wrote:
Are sweetener-type listings possible in this application? Combined base and expansions, promos, etc are often difficult to list and trade individually.


We're still adding searchable/separate sweetener listings. For now adding them to the condition information of a listing is the only method.
 
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Mike Weimholt
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
spamman5r wrote:
Are sweetener-type listings possible in this application? Combined base and expansions, promos, etc are often difficult to list and trade individually.



gatchaman wrote:
The post-trade approve/reject is interesting. How does it usually play out in your tests?

In a big trade, I would be surprised if everyone actually accepts. In the normal math trades, there's always at least one or two people who don't like the results, and if they can reject, it will essentially kill the whole thing. Does this system give people an incentive to "reach" more with their wants, and then just reject if they don't like the results?


What is the net gain for someone who does this? I'm having a very hard time seeing the motivation to do this. Why ever add a want for something you don't want to trade?



I think we've all occasionally been less than thrilled about the results of a math trade. I have. No matter how much time I spend carefully fine-tuning my want lists, there are times when I end up regretting that I checked a certain box. Except normally I just have to suck it up and honor my trade regardless. Now I'm going to be instead presented with a choice to accept or reject the results.

For me personally, it won't make much difference. I don't foresee myself ever clicking the reject button unless there was something shady or blatantly misleading about an item I'm receiving in trade.

However, not everyone is so conscientious. As we've seen repeatedly, there's always one bad apple who has no qualms about loudly complaining about the results. Except now, that person doesn't need to make any desperate appeals for intervention from the moderator. He can just click the reject button. It not only gives him the power to invalidate the results, but it validates his desire to do so as well because in his mind, "Hey, that's what it's there for", and "Screw you, it's my right!".

Mind you, I'm not saying the sky is falling. I'm all on board with the idea of a perpetual trade, and I would love to see us all make this work. And I think it can work. But there's always that one guy...
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Ben Stephenson
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
Gamemanue wrote:
Sometimes people click the wrong button and accidentally mark a trade they didn't intend to. Sometimes people just don't look closely enough at an item until they actually get it in trade, then realize it's not quite what they thought it was. Sometimes it's just trader's remorse, and they were okay with a trade in theory, but not when it actually happens. I think the possibility of one person being able to kill the whole trade by rejecting their results is not a good development. I'm concerned it could lead to less careful checking of lists because you know you have an out if you make a mistake or change your mind. There's almost always at least one person who regrets a trade.


The idea of user apathy and mistakes came up in testing, but we didn't know objectively address it. How would you address it?

We talked about users in the rejected loop having a second chance where their items had a rerun after some shortened time period, but things got complicated quickly keeping everything in sync.

As a positive, the rejected loop users still have access to seeing who wanted their listings for side trades or for making adjustments while they wait for the next run to take place.
 
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Mike Weimholt
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
Bien wrote:
gatchaman wrote:
The post-trade approve/reject is interesting. How does it usually play out in your tests?

In a big trade, I would be surprised if everyone actually accepts. In the normal math trades, there's always at least one or two people who don't like the results, and if they can reject, it will essentially kill the whole thing. Does this system give people an incentive to "reach" more with their wants, and then just reject if they don't like the results?


It breaks up all of the trade loops into their own approval space, so parts of the trade could get killed from one user rejecting or neglecting their part trade.

It seems length between result runs, number of rollover trades, and no ship/ship seemed to drive loop density.

With short result windows we noted there was more of an incentive to reject and hope for something better.

How would you incentivise users to avoid rejecting?


I'd be curious to see some stats on the number and size of trade loops you encountered in your testing. Most math trades I've participated in have seemed to end up with a relatively small number of very long trade loops, as opposed to numerous small trade loops.

As for a disincentive to reject, I'd say you have to sit out for some period of time whenever you reject a trade. At the very least, make them sit out the next trade cycle, but maybe even 2 or 3 trade cycles, depending on circumstances of course. For instance, you wouldn't want to ding someone for rejecting a trade for an item that had a misleading description. But if they just changed their mind about wanting a certain game, or were too lazy to use duplicate protection, or they just didn't read the listing thoroughly, that would be a different story.
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Stephen Eckman
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
I think rejecting a trade should come with a time-out: force you to skip the next trade at the least.
Still, rejecting a trade is a whole lot better than not following through on your obligations, and we all know that happens.
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Dan
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
This is a very cool idea. Thanks for the work. I'll be checking it out more later and hope to sign up.
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Andrew Schneider
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
Bien wrote:
Gamemanue wrote:
Sometimes people click the wrong button and accidentally mark a trade they didn't intend to. Sometimes people just don't look closely enough at an item until they actually get it in trade, then realize it's not quite what they thought it was. Sometimes it's just trader's remorse, and they were okay with a trade in theory, but not when it actually happens. I think the possibility of one person being able to kill the whole trade by rejecting their results is not a good development. I'm concerned it could lead to less careful checking of lists because you know you have an out if you make a mistake or change your mind. There's almost always at least one person who regrets a trade.


The idea of user apathy and mistakes came up in testing, but we didn't know objectively address it. How would you address it?

We talked about users in the rejected loop having a second chance where their items had a rerun after some shortened time period, but things got complicated quickly keeping everything in sync.


As a positive, the rejected loop users still have access to seeing who wanted their listings for side trades or for making adjustments while they wait for the next run to take place.


I think this is where your good idea is going too far trying to please everyone. That is the Caveat Emptor of a math trade...there is no reject. If the person doesn't want to accept that risk then they shouldn't participate in a Math Trade...that simple. If they bail after a trade is has been matched up, then no one will trade with that person in the future.

This is an amazing idea and if it wasn't for your approve/reject I would use this, but as is, I don't want to put in all the work of maintaining my trade and want lists for some jagoff to decide maybe he shouldn't have traded Food Chain Magnate for a Munchkin Promo Card after the fact and now I can't trade make my approved trade to get Macao (god the thought of actually finding Macao in a math trade at this point just gave me a semi).
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Robert Moore
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
I actually think that it could work, only look at it as "opting out" instead of rejecting a trade. Basically, if someone doesn't like one of their trades, they can bow out of the entire trade altogether and the system would rerun the results without their entries. Obviously this could be frustrating for users who are happy with the first results but then everything gets dumped and they get something less exciting the next time, but I think that you need to encourage a level of patience and understanding with this particular mode of trading.
And maybe you would need to monitor if there are users who just repeatedly pull their items from the trade and tell them "look, this clearly isn't working for you if you keep rejecting trades, so maybe you should stop participating in this".
This is all very interesting and I'll be curious to see how it plays out.

As for the idea of having your time wasted by someone continually bailing, the trade matrix is going to remember all your wants, so really once you've entered a majority of that data you won't have to do it again. Sure, you'd need to come back from time to time and adjust it based on new items being added and changes to your personal collection, but I'm guessing the bulk of the work is the initial setup and after that it's just minor maintenance.
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Justin W
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
angelofdef wrote:
I think this is where your good idea is going too far trying to please everyone. That is the Caveat Emptor of a math trade...there is no reject. If the person doesn't want to accept that risk then they shouldn't participate in a Math Trade...that simple. If they bail after a trade is has been matched up, then no one will trade with that person in the future.


I'm not sure you could have a "perpetual" math trade any other way, to be honest. It would be worse for 99 people to trade and the 100th person just doesn't get their game because someone completely forgot the system was running.

Why discount it without trying it? You have literally nothing to lose except the amount of setup you'd have in any other math trade.
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Ben Stephenson
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
angelofdef wrote:
This is an amazing idea and if it wasn't for your approve/reject I would use this, but as is, I don't want to put in all the work of maintaining my trade and want lists for some jagoff to decide maybe he shouldn't have traded Food Chain Magnate for a Munchkin Promo Card after the fact and now I can't trade make my approved trade to get Macao (god the thought of actually finding Macao in a math trade at this point just gave me a semi).


You're right, it could mean you've lost several days waiting for results, but you won't lose time having to redo your matrix.

Once the trade ends your untraded games matrix entries are still maintained, so you won't have to redo them. If the trade is rejected, those untraded item's matrix entries are still filled out.

Once you send and receive a game those items get removed out of your matrix.

I've updated the first post above to make it clear
-Your matrix settings automatically are maintained for untraded/rejected items
-And removed for successfully given/received items from your matrix.

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Jonathan Challis
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
The perpetual cycles sounds really interesting, but only if there is no rejection. I wouldn't be interested until that goes, although this looks to be US only anyway...
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Grace P.
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
Thanks for this! I look forward to seeing how everything works out and I hope this takes off, even if there are some bumps along the way.
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
Gamemanue wrote:
Sometimes people just don't look closely enough at an item until they actually get it in trade, then realize it's not quite what they thought it was.


I've done this at least twice, haha! Of course I still honored the trades and shipped immediately as usual but I fear I've been the source of people have really good math trades.

I welcome this idea totally.
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Sheng Lin
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
I have a bunch of smaller unrelated games that I would like to bundle together to try and trade for larger games. Can I "bundle" like 3-5 completely unrelated games together as one lot? How would I do that?
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Ben Stephenson
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Re: US-50 Perpetual Ship Math Trade Beta
iruul wrote:
I have a bunch of smaller unrelated games that I would like to bundle together to try and trade for larger games. Can I "bundle" like 3-5 completely unrelated games together as one lot? How would I do that?


Yes, at the moment the only way to do so is by adding them in the primary listing.

We are adding the ability to add sweeteners in a more natural, searchable, way, but it won't be this week.

Example
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