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Scythe» Forums » Rules

Subject: When Do Workers Retreat During The Move Action? rss

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Mad Halfling
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Just thought I'd reference this thread as it's listed under strategy, but it actually contains an important rules clarification that people might miss because of this (I almost didn't read it).

Worker displacement (i.e. if there are only enemy workers, and no enemy combat units in a hex) occurs at the end of the moving unit's movement, rather than after all movement has finished, as the combats do. This means that during a normal move action, as the first (combat) unit's movement you can move in, clear the workers from a hex (again, provided there are no enemy combat units in there) with that first unit having to stop, then assuming you have speed unlocked, move a second unit through that hex and into another one (currently this would have to be a combat unit as speed doesn't benefit workers).
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Steinar Nerhus
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Thanks for posting this here!

We did not catch this rule, and it seems a lot of others also missed it. It should have been stated more clarely in the rules!

This way also makes a lot more sense, it was strange that workers alone could contain an entire army... It is OK that a single mech is disrupted since it has to chase the workers away
 
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Wouter De Haes
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This rule clarification does not mesh well with the rule in the rulebook.

In the thread you link, a clear distinction is made between a Move action and movement. This distinction is also quite clear in the rulebook.

An excerpt from page 11:

"If your character and/or mech move into a territory controlled by an opponent’s workers (and no other units), their movement ends and they cannot move again this turn. After you’ve completed your Move action, each of the opponent’s workers on that territory immediately retreats to their faction’s home base, leaving behind any resource tokens."

See the highlighted sentence. The text on page 11 again makes a clear distinction between the end of a movement and the end of the entire Move action. If the rule clarification is correct, the line in the rulebook is very confusing and needs to be corrected imo.
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Paulo Renato
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KangaxxTheLich wrote:
This rule clarification does not mesh well with the rule in the rulebook.

In the thread you link, a clear distinction is made between a Move action and movement. This distinction is also quite clear in the rulebook.

An excerpt from page 11:

"If your character and/or mech move into a territory controlled by an opponent’s workers (and no other units), their movement ends and they cannot move again this turn. After you’ve completed your Move action, each of the opponent’s workers on that territory immediately retreats to their faction’s home base, leaving behind any resource tokens."

See the highlighted sentence. The text on page 11 again makes a clear distinction between the end of a movement and the end of the entire Move action. If the rule clarification is correct, the line in the rulebook is very confusing and needs to be corrected imo.


100% in agreement with this statement
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Trevor Soule
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KangaxxTheLich wrote:
This rule clarification does not mesh well with the rule in the rulebook.

In the thread you link, a clear distinction is made between a Move action and movement. This distinction is also quite clear in the rulebook.

An excerpt from page 11:

"If your character and/or mech move into a territory controlled by an opponent’s workers (and no other units), their movement ends and they cannot move again this turn. After you’ve completed your Move action, each of the opponent’s workers on that territory immediately retreats to their faction’s home base, leaving behind any resource tokens."

See the highlighted sentence. The text on page 11 again makes a clear distinction between the end of a movement and the end of the entire Move action. If the rule clarification is correct, the line in the rulebook is very confusing and needs to be corrected imo.


Jamey's clarification does seem to contradict with is in the rulebook, especially after he clarifies that Move and Move Action are two separate things. The rulebook says "Move Action" so it seems like the workers would not clear away until after the Action ends.

I think it'd be interesting if it worked the way he mentions in the other thread, simply because it might open more opportunity for tactical movement. But, it is at odds with the rulebook, so it could use (further) clarification.
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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This is an example where I was trying to prevent confusion about one thing, and I ended up creating confusion for another.

The confusing situation I was trying to avoid was one where a mech/character with speed would move onto a territory with an opponent worker. The unit's movement should immediately end even though the worker is forced off the territory--they can't continue moving. However, the intention was that another unit could then move through that territory since it is cleared out.

I see now that the rules as stated make it sound like the enemy worker doesn't retreat until your entire Move action is complete. I should have worded it as follows:

"If your character or mech move into a territory controlled by an opponent’s workers (and no other units), its movement ends and they cannot move again this turn. Each of the opponent’s workers on that territory immediately retreats to their faction’s home base, leaving behind any resource tokens."

So the question at this point is: Is it better to errata the rules as written so they reflect the original intention, or is it too late, given that over 45,000 copies of the rules have been printed?

I respect your opinions, and I'm open to your thoughts about this.
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蓝魔
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jameystegmaier wrote:

So the question at this point is: Is it better to errata the rules as written so they reflect the original intention, or is it too late, given that over 45,000 copies of the rules have been printed?

I respect your opinions, and I'm open to your thoughts about this.


Errata the rules of course for the 2nd "Essential" edition of Scythe complete with Scottish, Japanese & African factions in 2017.
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Ken B.
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Quote:
"If your character and/or mech move into a territory controlled by an opponent’s workers (and no other units), its movement ends and they cannot move again this turn. Each of the opponent’s workers on that territory immediately retreats to their faction’s home base, leaving behind any resource tokens."



That phrasing is perfect and leaves no ambiguity, in my opinion. I think using that as a rules clarification is just fine.


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Chris Laudermilk
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I would change your "and/or" to a simple "or". The way you have it worded still implies moving the units together as a group while using a solitary "or" implies moving a single piece at a time.

I am among those who interpreted the rule incorrectly, thinking that all movement is lumped together as one action. I will present this clarification next time the game hits the table.
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Trevor Soule
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jameystegmaier wrote:
This is an example where I was trying to prevent confusion about one thing, and I ended up creating confusion for another.

The confusing situation I was trying to avoid was one where a mech/character with speed would move onto a territory with an opponent worker. The unit's movement should immediately end even though the worker is forced off the territory--they can't continue moving. However, the intention was that another unit could then move through that territory since it is cleared out.

I see now that the rules as stated make it sound like the enemy worker doesn't retreat until your entire Move action is complete. I should have worded it as follows:

"If your character and/or mech move into a territory controlled by an opponent’s workers (and no other units), its movement ends and they cannot move again this turn. Each of the opponent’s workers on that territory immediately retreats to their faction’s home base, leaving behind any resource tokens."

So the question at this point is: Is it better to errata the rules as written so they reflect the original intention, or is it too late, given that over 45,000 copies of the rules have been printed?

I respect your opinions, and I'm open to your thoughts about this.


Errata is hard to pull off, because it creates a rules rift between players who read the forums/online sites and those who don't. Two players with different versions of the rules who are playing the same game are not going to come to an agreement.

I will say that I think the original intention (ie. the errata) offers a lot more opportunity for tactical movement then the way it is written in the rules, so from now on I will be playing this way with my friends.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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GamerChicken wrote:

Errata is hard to pull off, because it creates a rules rift between players who read the forums/online sites and those who don't. Two players with different versions of the rules who are playing the same game are not going to come to an agreement.


As long as someone in the room has a smart phone, the errata is available for everyone to see if there is a disagreement. Either no-one in the room is aware of it, or at least one person is and they can show it to everyone else. Easy!
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John Bruns
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After reading the original thread, I checked the rule book and found that the there was a minor distinction between moving onto a worker hex and a combat unit hex. The former states "your Move action" while the latter states "all your Move actions". This subtle difference implies that there was an intent to differentiate between a single unit moving and all you units moving.

While a clarification for imperfect wording is needed, it isn't an errata that completely changes the printed rule.
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Trevor Taylor
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I already assumed this was the correct way. I think the change of wording in the rules for future editions would be best. However, if you wanted to offer a free image, matching the rulebook graphics which we could print on a standard label and chuck in the rules...that would be awesome
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Clyde W
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FFG prints hundreds of thousands of copies of their games and erratas them all the time.
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Trevor Schadt
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GamerChicken wrote:
Errata is hard to pull off, because it creates a rules rift between players who read the forums/online sites and those who don't. Two players with different versions of the rules who are playing the same game are not going to come to an agreement.
The idea of people either deliberately or inadvertently having their heads in the sand does not invalidate the need for the publication of the errata.
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Gareth Roberts
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The strategy is much deeper if your other units can continue to move past the sent home workers so stick with your intention.

Errata it, its not a huge problem. Wizards of the coast and fantasy flight errata their card games all the time from an online database.

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Drew Lawson
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Yeah, I have no problem with errata. In fact, I'd rather the game company publish an official errata document somewhere so I can be directed to it whenever I have a question. My group is pretty good with rules but every once in a while someone will have to google for a clarification, and it helps a lot when there's an official answer somewhere.
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Joseph Cochran
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jameystegmaier wrote:
So the question at this point is: Is it better to errata the rules as written so they reflect the original intention, or is it too late, given that over 45,000 copies of the rules have been printed?


Errata. It's a small point that changes, but does not break, gameplay. Anyone who plays by an incorrect ruling (waiting until all movement is done to retreat workers) isn't playing a particularly inferior game, just a slight variant. And anyone who really cares will find the errata, particularly if it's on your website and in later printings of the rules.
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Frank Hamrick
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I vote to Errata the rules as written to reflect the original intention. I don't think it's too late. I would love to see a file that we could download that matches the type-face, margins, etc. in the rule book so we could print it on a label and paste it in our rules. (You could also include an errata sheet in the first expansion for those who purchase it.)

What ever you do, I will certainly follow the clarified rule - in fact, have already emailed our gaming group about the change.
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Frank Hamrick
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jsciv wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
So the question at this point is: Is it better to errata the rules as written so they reflect the original intention, or is it too late, given that over 45,000 copies of the rules have been printed?


Errata. It's a small point that changes, but does not break, gameplay. Anyone who plays by an incorrect ruling (waiting until all movement is done to retreat workers) isn't playing a particularly inferior game, just a slight variant. And anyone who really cares will find the errata, particularly if it's on your website and in later printings of the rules.


Actually, I played a game recently in which a player deliberately strung out a group of single workers so that I could only take one a turn - effectively cancelling my +1 Speed (as we then interpreted the rules). So the rule change does open the game up and is far better IMO.
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George
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tal342 wrote:
After reading the original thread, I checked the rule book and found that the there was a minor distinction between moving onto a worker hex and a combat unit hex. The former states "your Move action" while the latter states "all your Move actions". This subtle difference implies that there was an intent to differentiate between a single unit moving and all you units moving.

While a clarification for imperfect wording is needed, it isn't an errata that completely changes the printed rule.


I noticed this too on pg 11, and although you could get away with calling it a "major clarification", I now agree it's probably best to call it a full fledged Errata (as you are doing). The text "After you've completed your Move action," is very misleading.

I did notice on that same page, there is a slight variation on that first sentence below "Controlled by Workers" and "Controlled by Characters and/or Mechs". If you are going to be revising the rulebook anyway, I would change the end of those first sentences to be the same for consistency. The difference is:

"...their movement ends and they cannot move again this turn."
vs.
"...their movement ends (even if you have a mech ability that would allow them to move further)."



 
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M Niggel
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I also misinterpreted the rule as written and I agree that it's better to release the errata online and in future printings vs. altering the intent of the rule. The rules as written aren't wrong, after all; they're just unclear.

You might be adding confusion by changing plurality here, though: "...its movement ends and they cannot move...". Wouldn't it be clearer to state "...its movement ends and it cannot move..."? Switching to plural might imply something also applies to other units you are moving as part of the action. (While workers a mech is carrying might technically fit that definition, I don't think they need to be considered to that degree.)
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Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
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clydeiii wrote:
FFG prints hundreds of thousands of copies of their games and erratas them all the time.

Not to mention GMT and their concept of a "living rulebook", i.e. it is simply assumed it will be updated over time...
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Patrick G.
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Errata happens all the time. Just put up a new page on your site called "Errata". Or add it the FAQ.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Thank you all for your feedback. Really, this is incredibly helpful, and I'm lucky to have wise, passionate gamers to provide these insights. It also means a lot to me that you didn't roast me for this mistake! I don't relish the thought of an errata, but I'd rather admit to the mistake and fix it (per your advice) than proceed as if nothing's wrong.

I think it is best to errata the wording to match the original intention of the rule. As some of you have pointed out, it does not ruin Scythe for people who play with the incorrect rule. But it's nice to have the correct version.

I'm going to change the plurality of "their" to "its" several times on page 11, as well as adding the more consistent phrasing that George mentions. I'll also change the phrasing on page 11 to the following:

"If your character or mech move into a territory controlled by an opponent’s workers (and no other units), its movement ends (even if you have a mech ability that would allow it to move further). Each of the opponent’s workers on that territory immediately retreats to their faction’s home base, leaving behind any resource tokens."

I've also added the errata to the FAQ:

http://stonemaiergames.com/games/scythe/faq-scythe/
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