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Next War: India-Pakistan» Forums » General

Subject: Kashmir scenario rss

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Wendell
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I might be the most incompetent general in the Pakistani army, because I've run thru the first (Kashmir) scenario twice and come no-where close to even a draw with India.

If I'm right, the Pakistani forces near Islamabad can't even reach the first Indian fortified hex (4507) on the first turn so the only options for a turn 1 attack (with the surprise bonus) are vs the Indian MTN div, or for the Chinese to paradrop into somewhere and try to hold on...
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Carsten Bohne
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But they can. Did you execute the Pre-Game Move granted to the Pakistani army in scenario rule #4?
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Wendell
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dasher47051 wrote:
But they can. Did you execute the Pre-Game Move granted to the Pakistani army in scenario rule #4?


Yes, but it's half movement so that's only 2 MP - and given that those roads are mostly secondary, not that fast...
 
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Carsten Bohne
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Sure, but that's sufficient, isn't it?

India will need to place those Combat Outposts in 4507 and 4508.
The most advanced IROP unit is placed in 3905. Pre-game moves will get those guys into 4105. Four MPs during Initiative movement will let them reach 4306, right next to the first Combat Outpost.

I'll need to step down to playing Risk and A&A if I got that wrong. Please, somebody tell me that I counted correctly...
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Wendell
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From where Pakistan's 12b/X division starts (3905), with six movement points (two in pre-move, four during initiative move), it can only get to 4306, right? And it's 12/a buddy is one hex behind. If there is nothing set up in 4307, there's nothing for it to attack during initiative combat. This is all based on my assumption that most of the roads up there are secondary roads and cost 1 MP/hex to enter.
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Carsten Bohne
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Well, you only need to reach 4306 to engage an Outpost in 4307.

There's two Combat Outposts to place and two spots to put them. As per GSR 3.4 they don't stack - one per hex only. Thus you're guaranteed to encounter one in 4307.

And that armor unit in 3702 will also reach 4306 with Pre-game and Initiative movement combined.
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Wendell
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dasher47051 wrote:
Well, you only need to reach 4306 to engage an Outpost in 4307.

There's two Combat Outposts to place and two spots to put them. As per GSR 3.4 they don't stack - one per hex only. Thus you're guaranteed to encounter one in 4307.

And that armor unit in 3702 will also reach 4306 with Pre-game and Initiative movement combined.


Right - but I didn't put an outpost in 4307...
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Douglas Bush
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First turn is an initiative turn, so you have 3 movement phases to work with as the Pakistanis. If there isn't a combat outpost in 4307, then you can't attack Baramula (where an Indian division sets up) until 1st basic combat. But... you have the FCNA corps attacking and the Chinese airborne division to get into action, both from right off the bat in the first initiative movement/combat phase. And... if the Indians cede 4307 and 4308 (the town of Uri) by not defending them you are actually doing very well taking control of those hexes on T1. That will let you get all of X corps into action on T2, which is another initiative turn for the Pakistani side.

Doug
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wheelsboy wrote:
First turn is an initiative turn, so you have 3 movement phases to work with as the Pakistanis. If there isn't a combat outpost in 4307, then you can't attack Baramula (where an Indian division sets up) until 1st basic combat. But... you have the FCNA corps attacking and the Chinese airborne division to get into action, both from right off the bat in the first initiative movement/combat phase. And... if the Indians cede 4307 and 4308 (the town of Uri) by not defending them you are actually doing very well taking control of those hexes on T1. That will let you get all of X corps into action on T2, which is another initiative turn for the Pakistani side.

Doug


I had the Indians defending 4308...
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Carsten Bohne
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wifwendell wrote:
wheelsboy wrote:
First turn is an initiative turn, so you have 3 movement phases to work with as the Pakistanis. If there isn't a combat outpost in 4307, then you can't attack Baramula (where an Indian division sets up) until 1st basic combat. But... you have the FCNA corps attacking and the Chinese airborne division to get into action, both from right off the bat in the first initiative movement/combat phase. And... if the Indians cede 4307 and 4308 (the town of Uri) by not defending them you are actually doing very well taking control of those hexes on T1. That will let you get all of X corps into action on T2, which is another initiative turn for the Pakistani side.

Doug


I had the Indians defending 4308...

But from my understanding, you'll usually have them defend 4307.
(I wrote "you _must_ have them defend 4307", but I can't prove that anymore - see below.)

The OOB is handing the ROI two Combat Outposts to place.
I'd thought you were only allowed to place them in the blue-dotted hexes but can't find the quote. GSR3.4 at least says that they must be placed in friendly border hexes. It also says that you only may place one Combat Outpost per hex.

You may not place them in hexrows 40 or less.
4109 and 4209 will get bypassed.
4307 and 4308 both block the IROP path.
The entire Northern border between hexes 4407 and 4808 will see them get bypassed again. Combat Outposts don't excert a ZOC.
4809 is the only other hex in which they'll have some effect (and incidentally it also has a blue dot).

So you've got two units and a grand total of three hexes to put a single one of them into: 4307, 4308, and 4809.
As the IROP player I'd be glad if you left 4307 empty...
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Douglas Bush
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The outposts don't have to go in a fortified hex. Any hex with the border on it is allowed. So, any of the mountain border hexes between 4912 and 4109. But yeah, the best places are 4912 (to help guard Kargil), 4809 (the road to Bandipora), 4808 (guarding the "pass" through the high mountain), 4407 (another "pass"), and then 4307/4308 on the main road into the valley. Putting them in a fortified hex gives them a much better chance of surviving, as you point out.

Doug
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Wendell
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dasher47051 wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
wheelsboy wrote:
First turn is an initiative turn, so you have 3 movement phases to work with as the Pakistanis. If there isn't a combat outpost in 4307, then you can't attack Baramula (where an Indian division sets up) until 1st basic combat. But... you have the FCNA corps attacking and the Chinese airborne division to get into action, both from right off the bat in the first initiative movement/combat phase. And... if the Indians cede 4307 and 4308 (the town of Uri) by not defending them you are actually doing very well taking control of those hexes on T1. That will let you get all of X corps into action on T2, which is another initiative turn for the Pakistani side.

Doug


I had the Indians defending 4308...

But from my understanding, you'll usually have them defend 4307.
(I wrote "you _must_ have them defend 4307", but I can't prove that anymore - see below.)

The OOB is handing the ROI two Combat Outposts to place.
I'd thought you were only allowed to place them in the blue-dotted hexes but can't find the quote. GSR3.4 at least says that they must be placed in friendly border hexes. It also says that you only may place one Combat Outpost per hex.

You may not place them in hexrows 40 or less.
4109 and 4209 will get bypassed.
4307 and 4308 both block the IROP path.
The entire Northern border between hexes 4407 and 4808 will see them get bypassed again. Combat Outposts don't excert a ZOC.
4809 is the only other hex in which they'll have some effect (and incidentally it also has a blue dot).

So you've got two units and a grand total of three hexes to put a single one of them into: 4307, 4308, and 4809.
As the IROP player I'd be glad if you left 4307 empty...


As Doug said, they don't have to go in fortified hexes. In any case, I put them in 4809 and 4308. 4307 being empty STILL slows the Pakistani army down a bit (can't use road movement into it initially).

Back to what I said initially, (and assuming there is no combat outpost in 4307, which to me seems like a good idea for the Indian player to leave empty), there aren't many attacks Pakistan can make on turn 1 (when they get the surprise shift), and I'm curious how people win with Pakistan in this scenario.

Again I'm prepared to be amazed at how badly I played Pakistan, but I haven't seen that yet!
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Douglas Bush
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"there aren't many attacks Pakistan can make on turn 1 (when they get the surprise shift)"

Between the Chinese airborne and FCNA corps, there are often a lot of other attacks to be made on turn 1. Also, X corps can get into action for at least 1 combat round (Basic Combat). On turn 2 you get another entire PRC airborne division, and it's another initiative turn.

The Indian's weakness is the lower number of steps they have overall, which given the super-high attrition on the CRT for defenders (as well as attackers) the best way to go is to just do as many attacks as possible and hope for a few good rolls to whittle the Indians down. If you work the air and helicopter support to get negative mods on the attacks, you can get defender losses even on the 3 or 4 column. The way the VP work you can actually win by just killing Indian units vs taking all the VP hexes. You can often win with just 2 of the 5 taken if you get enough loss VP.

However, this is tough terrain for an attacker, so not an easy task to get into the valley.
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Wendell
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wheelsboy wrote:
"there aren't many attacks Pakistan can make on turn 1 (when they get the surprise shift)"

Between the Chinese airborne and FCNA corps, there are often a lot of other attacks to be made on turn 1. Also, X corps can get into action for at least 1 combat round (Basic Combat). On turn 2 you get another entire PRC airborne division, and it's another initiative turn.

The Indian's weakness is the lower number of steps they have overall, which given the super-high attrition on the CRT for defenders (as well as attackers) the best way to go is to just do as many attacks as possible and hope for a few good rolls to whittle the Indians down. If you work the air and helicopter support to get negative mods on the attacks, you can get defender losses even on the 3 or 4 column. The way the VP work you can actually win by just killing Indian units vs taking all the VP hexes. You can often win with just 2 of the 5 taken if you get enough loss VP.

However, this is tough terrain for an attacker, so not an easy task to get into the valley.


Doug I'm sure you're right - but can you give some more specifics about where Pakistan can reach and attack the Indians on turn 1? If I'm playing right, with only 2 airmobile points, only 2 of those Chinese brigades can get anywhere on turn 1, and landing zones are limited by terrain, right? Not sure how much 4 attack points of Chinese paras can do.
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Carsten Bohne
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wheelsboy wrote:
The outposts don't have to go in a fortified hex. Any hex with the border on it is allowed. So, any of the mountain border hexes between 4912 and 4109.

I'm a beginner with the series as well, so I'd love to understand this, too.

Sure, they may go in any friendly border hex. But they can't move and don't excert a ZOC so they will only do something when placed on a road - that's the three hexes I mentioned. Any other hex will only save them from being killed which is not very productive in itself.

The biggest chunk of Pakistani units will come in from the Southwest. If there's one speedbump less on the IROP's main avenue of advance, they should be happy, shouldn't they?
It's too late for me now to do some serious rules research so I'm not sure of the timing in the SoP, but doesn't the speedbump in 4307 allow the other speedbump in 4308 to try to destroy the bridge between those two hexes?
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