$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 49.94

3,729 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
23.5% of Goal | 30 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Dominion: Intrigue» Forums » General

Subject: Why is dominion ranked so "low"? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Alex
Spain
Coruña
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Not trying to start a flamewar, just curious about dominion flaws and looking for experienced players to hear what they dislike about it.

I've only played a friends copy and the online base dominion and I found it great. Fast gameplay, easy to learn, easy for non gamers to get into and feel like they're doing something... Replayable, with the amount of luck and randomness that I appreciate, and also -I guess- with great depths to master if you put in the time.

It's the first game in my wishlist. Intrigue is the only dominion game that is exhausted and waiting for a reprint in Spanish. I pester my local store every time about this.

A bit about me: my favorite games are twilight struggle and eldritch horror. I love Rftg. I can stand catan with the latest expansion to humour my girlfriend. Not a big fan of Puerto Rico. Won't play munchkin unless it's the only game in the house. I can solo Here I stand without special rules and have an amazing time. I'd rather try to memorize Diplomacy rules than playing a round of Dixit. Next in my wishlist come TTA and triumph of chaos 2.

So, BGG rating jinxs aside, what would make a player like me give dominion a lower rating than Codenames? Do you grow tired of it? I don't know. I own a few games of the top 20 and my intuition is that this game should rank higher among BGG general population. Sure, I would place Rftg over Le Havre, so maybe I'm not a great example.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Schumann
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
My opinion is that it's because the gamers here think it really needs an expansion to shine and rate it accordingly. Personally, I agree it needs at least one expansion to shine, but I do not rate the game based on just what's in the base set. <shrug> It's my rating, I can rate how I like.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kārlis Jēriņš
Latvia
Riga
flag msg tools
I'm a sheep.
badge
A lovely, fluffy sheep.
mbmbmbmbmb
zosete wrote:
Not trying to start a flamewar, just curious about dominion flaws and looking for experienced players to hear what they dislike about it.

I've only played a friends copy and the online base dominion and I found it great. Fast gameplay, easy to learn, easy for non gamers to get into and feel like they're doing something... Replayable, with the amount of luck and randomness that I appreciate, and also -I guess- with great depths to master if you put in the time.

It's the first game in my wishlist. Intrigue is the only dominion game that is exhausted and waiting for a reprint in Spanish. I pester my local store every time about this.

A bit about me: my favorite games are twilight struggle and eldritch horror. I love Rftg. I can stand catan with the latest expansion to humour my girlfriend. Not a big fan of Puerto Rico. Won't play munchkin unless it's the only game in the house. I can solo Here I stand without special rules and have an amazing time. I'd rather try to memorize Diplomacy rules than playing a round of Dixit. Next in my wishlist come TTA and triumph of chaos 2.

So, BGG rating jinxs aside, what would make a player like me give dominion a lower rating than Codenames? Do you grow tired of it? I don't know. I own a few games of the top 20 and my intuition is that this game should rank higher among BGG general population. Sure, I would place Rftg over Le Havre, so maybe I'm not a great example.


Both Dominion base games are in the top 50 games. When you remember that there are over 85'000 games in the database, that is extremely high - within the top 0.05%, if my math isn't failing me. That's a justifiable position (though it might be a bit higher if there was only one Dominion base game, because now the votes are somewhat split across the two entries).
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Netherlands
flag msg tools
       This space              intentionally              left blank.
badge
zosete wrote:
Not trying to start a flamewar, just curious about dominion flaws and looking for experienced players to hear what they dislike about it.

So, BGG rating jinxs aside, what would make a player like me give dominion a lower rating than Codenames?
Nothing. Change your way of looking at the BGG rank. Relative positions within it don't matter, and are effectively meaningless. Neither Dominion nor Dominion: Intrigue is ranked "low". They're both in the top 50, out of tens of thousands of games in the database total. That's insanely high.

Different demographics like different things, and rate according to different scales. Dominion has over the years been tried by a lot of people (over 50,000 of them!), including people who don't really like deck-builders, but gave it a try anyway at some point because it was on offer, and then rated according to that experience. That drags the average rating down. Codenames meanwhile is much newer, and so is still mostly in the self-selecting phase of being mostly played by people who'll like it. (Though as a widely available party game, that's now effectively over, as can be seen by its meteoric rise having stalled.) Other people, meanwhile, have moved on from Dominion to newer deck-builders which built on top of the lessons they learned from Dominion. Several of those people changed their rating for Dominion to something which for them personally reflects that it's just not as good as this other newer game. This is something which every older trend-setting game suffers from.

Quote:
my intuition is that this game should rank higher among BGG general population

Observe the ebb and flow of games in the top 500 for another ten years, and then see if your intuition won't have changed. Nothing about Dominion's particular spot in the ranks at this particular moment in time is particularly remarkable or noteworthy.


Revel in the fact that you enjoy Dominion. Treat BGG ranks as a very loose guide to possibly finding some other games which you might also enjoy, by virtue of them having relatively wide appeal, but then actually look at each individual game to see if it offers at all what you're looking for. Most won't (or maybe most will, depending on your tastes). Caring about specific ranks beyond that is a fool's errand, not worth wasting your energy on.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antanas
United Kingdom
Derby
Derbyshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Majority of low Dominion votes come from people who hate losing and have only played against experienced players. Dominion is one of those games that when you master it, you'll win most of the time against someone who's playing it occasionally. So generally from what I've seen, there are too many people who have a grudge against this game for it to be ranked higher.

Anyway, I should not recommend anyone to look at rankings too seriously. Not especially when you're deciding a new game to buy. The ranking is a very subjective measure. Similarly to music, I can see that J.Bieber is among the top selling performers. Does it mean I have to like his songs and listen to his album while I'm driving? Obviously, not. The same goes for boardgames. To each his own.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Carter
United States
North Liberty
Iowa
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I find the shuffling tiresome.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Spain
Coruña
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
lebryant wrote:
Dominion is one of those games that when you master it, you'll win most of the time against someone who's playing it occasionally.


This is one of my main requisites when considering a game's worth.

Also, one of the reasons I find twilight struggle hard to introduce to new people. I'm not a great player, but I'll trash a newcomer 9 out of 10 times, out of sheer experience. And it's not fun to trudge along hours of misery for them. In faster games like rftg my opponents catch up quickly with the basics and by the third game they usually have a good shot at winning. Also, there's the feeling that you're doing and building something of your own, not just being a sparring. My short experience with dominion left me the same impression. I won almost every game, sure, and that may have to do with my enthusiasm, but you know how this people are, focusing on "fun" and "keeping up the pace"

I found interesting what a_traveller said about people moving on to games that built upon dominion. Is there some game that has displaced dominion in your heart? Something you really dislike about it, besides reshuffling? Obvious winning combos? Optimal strategies? A clear divide between good and worthless cards?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron Laufer
United States
Millington
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
zosete wrote:
I found interesting what a_traveller said about people moving on to games that built upon dominion. Is there some game that has displaced dominion in your heart? Something you really dislike about it, besides reshuffling?
For me, no. Much like Star Wars, I find the original to be the best, despite its flaws.

But a common complaint I hear is the lack of theme. Personally, that's not an issue. I like the purity of Dominion's light theme. I find that it lets me focus on the core mechanic without distraction. But some prefer the thematic gameplay of something like Thunderstone or Ascension: Deckbuilding Game.

After falling in love with Dominion, I tried a LOT of the clones that popped up. The only ones I go back to, though, are those two and Dominion itself. I traded away almost all the others. I kept DC Comics Deck-Building Game and Star Trek Deck Building Game: The Next Generation just based on theme, and just picked up Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game for the same reason. I kept Heroes of Graxia because... well, I'm not sure why actually. Maybe I thought I'd give it one more chance before giving up on it. Honestly, I don't remember much about it.

Point is, even having played the more thematic deckbuilders, I still think Dominion is the better game. But others disagree.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ackmondual
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
zosete wrote:
Not trying to start a flamewar, just curious about dominion flaws and looking for experienced players to hear what they dislike about it.

I've only played a friends copy and the online base dominion and I found it great. Fast gameplay, easy to learn, easy for non gamers to get into and feel like they're doing something... Replayable, with the amount of luck and randomness that I appreciate, and also -I guess- with great depths to master if you put in the time.

It's the first game in my wishlist. Intrigue is the only dominion game that is exhausted and waiting for a reprint in Spanish. I pester my local store every time about this.

A bit about me: my favorite games are twilight struggle and eldritch horror. I love Rftg. I can stand catan with the latest expansion to humour my girlfriend. Not a big fan of Puerto Rico. Won't play munchkin unless it's the only game in the house. I can solo Here I stand without special rules and have an amazing time. I'd rather try to memorize Diplomacy rules than playing a round of Dixit. Next in my wishlist come TTA and triumph of chaos 2.

So, BGG rating jinxs aside, what would make a player like me give dominion a lower rating than Codenames? Do you grow tired of it? I don't know. I own a few games of the top 20 and my intuition is that this game should rank higher among BGG general population. Sure, I would place Rftg over Le Havre, so maybe I'm not a great example.

The simpler answer is if you can see why you'd like Dominion more than the #1 ranked Pandemic Legacy, then you've pretty much already answered your own question. Rankings are still very subjective.

Dominion "requiring" an expansion (BTW, you talk about base game Dominion, but posted in the Intrigue section? I guess we're going by the BGG definition of an expansion [in terms of not requiring components from another set], even though conceptually, Intrigue does expand base game) is like a "victim of its own success" story. You CAN get a decent # of plays in before the base game gets "samey". However, games of Dominion play so quickly that you tend to reach that point quicker than not.



Amongst legit reasons why people don't like Dominion...
--Folks see how to win the game, that there can be some interesting card combos and interactions to discover, but in the end, the game is just on exercise drawing cards and generating coins. That's pretty bland to them

--too much shuffling

--Some folks deem expansions to be necessary b/c the base game more or less breaks down into "is there Chapel or not?". Adding even 1 expansion greatly adds to the number of paths to victory.

--they prefer more theme to their game (and note that many of these competing games are ranked lower than Dom)

--keeping track of actions is too burdensome for some of the "rawest" of newbies, and just a nuisance that some of the more veteran gamers would rather not deal with. At least if they do have to deal with it, they'd rather play a more deeper game (in terms of weight. I know Dom can have some surprising depth, but that still pales in comparisons to others that are weighted higher on BGG's scale).

But to be fair, playing something like Ascension, you still need to keep track of how much Power and Runes you have, as you can buy/defeat multiple things per turn, and that can throw the same "rawest" of newbies into a loop too.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Runcible Spoon
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
lebryant wrote:
Majority of low Dominion votes come from people who hate losing and have only played against experienced players.


Do you have actual data to back up this opinion? Otherwise it is merely uninformed speculation.

The reasoning about why dominion would garner low votes would is pretty flawed too. In short your thinking boils down to "sore losers give the game a low rating." Of course that could apply to nearly any game on BGG, so why would it only apply to dominion?

Consider a simple multiplayer non-coop and non-team scenario (games like Puerto Rico, Agricola, Caylus, El Grande etc.)

Many games (not all of course) play up to 4p or 5p. One person will win and the rest will lose. If your thinking is correct then these kinds of games that reward skill should be very lowly ranked on BGG because in any given game many more players lose rather than win and yet we find the opposite on BGG, well designed competitive multiplayer games that tend to reward skill are often ranked highly (again puerto rico, agricola, caylus, el grande etc.).

Your assertion that sore losers are the majority of low ratings is highly suspect. Instead people probably rate dominion (I give it a low rating) for other reasons that are quite legitimate (c.f. Ackmondual's post above).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.