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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Are there rules "hidden" in the app? rss

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Mattias Elfström
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I'm considering getting MoM2.

Are all rules for the game available in the manual or are there "hidden" rules that only the app knows?

I have XCOM and in that game the players don't know what rolls the app makes or what rules it follows. Is it the same case with MoM2?
 
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Baker Odom
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In a way I suppose. I mean for instance there's no way to know what Mythos Events the app will throw at you. However, you do know that generally they will get worse and worse for you as the game goes on.

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Mattias Elfström
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Interesting.

I suppose that means there is no way to play the game without the app substituting those mechanics with a human "gamemaster". And there is also no way of knowing the odds for the events governed by the app.
 
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Neil Sorenson
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Mattias wrote:
Interesting.

I suppose that means there is no way to play the game without the app substituting those mechanics with a human "gamemaster". And there is also no way of knowing the odds for the events governed by the app.


Well, there's always the First Edition!
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Baker Odom
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Mattias wrote:
Interesting.

I suppose that means there is no way to play the game without the app substituting those mechanics with a human "gamemaster". And there is also no way of knowing the odds for the events governed by the app.


The app is absolutely 100% required. The game cannot be played without it.
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Mattias Elfström
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Can the app react to the game state?

In XCOM the app has no way of knowing board positions etc. Is this the same?
 
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Chris Rindfleisch
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MoM 2nd is the same. The app has no idea where investigators or monsters are at any particular time, but it DOES keep track of which investigators are involved, what monsters are on the board, certain environment effects such as if there is a fire actively ablaze.

If it did much more than that then it would no longer be an app companion to a board game, and would just be a video game.
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Baker Odom
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Mattias wrote:
Can the app react to the game state?

In XCOM the app has no way of knowing board positions etc. Is this the same?


It does not track the locations of investigators or monsters. However, when you reveal a new room through exploration it will often trigger various events.

Also, the game is very concerned with how long you're taking. Some events will occur based on how many rounds it takes you to get to a certain point on the map.
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ROGER DEAL
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The app does not roll the dice for you. The game comes with the special 6 sided dice. You do all the rolls yourself.
 
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Ron Armstrong
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I don't have the game but the dice look 8-sided.
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Baker Odom
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Ronatola wrote:
I don't have the game but the dice look 8-sided.


They are.
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Bruce
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There is hidden information, but mostly to the same level as there is with the 1st edition, just that instead of a player controlling that information through cards it is in the app.

If the XCOM situation bothers you I have you covered:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1336141/app-internal-rules-...

Doing this for MoM would ruin the game though.
 
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Mattias Elfström
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It bothers me with XCOM. I realise this is something that rubs different people differently. To me XCOM is not a game, but rather a "group activity". I personally don't like games where there is no opposition. Since the XCOM app can't "see" your moves it can't react to them. To me that means it is not a game in the classic sense. I wanted to know if it was the same with MOM2 before I invest in that too.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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Mattias wrote:
It bothers me with XCOM. I realise this is something that rubs different people differently. To me XCOM is not a game, but rather a "group activity". I personally don't like games where there is no opposition. Since the XCOM app can't "see" your moves it can't react to them. To me that means it is not a game in the classic sense. I wanted to know if it was the same with MOM2 before I invest in that too.


It can't see your moves in the way that a human opponent can, but it does react to input based on game state (in XCOM's case, it knows if there are UFO's in orbit, it knows how many missions you've completed, and it knows what the panic state of each continent is), and can use that information to make tactical decisions. Same with MOM2. Both are fully cooperative games, but no different than something like Pandemic, where something algorithmically (with random factors) is the opposition.

Now if you consider Pandemic as much of a "group activity" as games with apps, that's fine. But the apps for MOM2 and XCOM are just more complex decision engines than the Pandemic card decks (for example).
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Dean Love
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rozar5 wrote:
The app does not roll the dice for you. The game comes with the special 6 sided dice. You do all the rolls yourself.


Ronatola wrote:
I don't have the game but the dice look 8-sided.


The 6-sided dice are so special that they have two extra sides.
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Dean Love
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Mattias wrote:
It bothers me with XCOM. I realise this is something that rubs different people differently. To me XCOM is not a game, but rather a "group activity". I personally don't like games where there is no opposition. Since the XCOM app can't "see" your moves it can't react to them. To me that means it is not a game in the classic sense. I wanted to know if it was the same with MOM2 before I invest in that too.


It knows enough. There are plenty of competitive games that use obfuscation of information - the likes of Letters From Whitechapel or Fury Of Dracula.

The app knows what monsters are alive, how much health they have left, what characters are being played, what tests you pass and fail, and 90% of the time it knows what items the group has. It also has a general idea where you might be (you can't investigate something without being in that room, so it knows if you've been there in the previous turn).


But yeah, sometimes you'll get a Mythos event that effects any investigator in the Kitchen, when no investigators are in the Kitchen. That could be luck, or you figured out to avoid the Kitchen, but if that sort of thing bothers you then you may not like it.
 
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Mattias Elfström
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I know this is a personal preference thing.

I simply don't like to play against unknown algorithms that know little about the current tactical situation. I have never come across a coop that I think works as a game. To me they are more like multiplayer solitaire.

I asked the questions I did to understand if this was the same type of game and apparently it is.

I do have MOM1 and like the concept of that, but think there are to many problems with balance and errors for that game to truly shine.
 
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Dean Love
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Mattias wrote:
I know this is a personal preference thing.

I simply don't like to play against unknown algorithms that know little about the current tactical situation.


I'd say it knows 80% of the current tactical situation. It's a significant amount, just not everything.
 
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Matthew Watson
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Mattias wrote:
I have never come across a coop that I think works as a game. To me they are more like multiplayer solitaire.


This game really cannot be described as "multiplayer solitaire".
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Jan Tuijp
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Deano2099 wrote:
rozar5 wrote:
The app does not roll the dice for you. The game comes with the special 6 sided dice. You do all the rolls yourself.


Ronatola wrote:
I don't have the game but the dice look 8-sided.


The 6-sided dice are so special that they have two extra sides.


Examine them closely and you will find they're made in R'lyeh. Then you will go insane of course.

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Milan Mašát
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Mattias wrote:
I have never come across a coop that I think works as a game. To me they are more like multiplayer solitaire.

Try Space Alert. It can be played as solo, but it shines with 4-5 players...
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Ivan Cox
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Mattias wrote:
I know this is a personal preference thing.

I simply don't like to play against unknown algorithms that know little about the current tactical situation. I have never come across a coop that I think works as a game. To me they are more like multiplayer solitaire.

I asked the questions I did to understand if this was the same type of game and apparently it is.

I do have MOM1 and like the concept of that, but think there are to many problems with balance and errors for that game to truly shine.


A co-op with an app is likely to be much better at reacting than a co-op without an app.

This app doesn't know where the investigators or monsters are so it cannot engage in any particularly tricksy tactics, but then the tactical combat side of the game is less the focus than in say Descent, so this may just not be the game you're looking for. The app does react to the game state in other ways though. Take the mythos phase - in Eldritch Horror you create the mythos deck at the start of the game and it doesn't 'react' to anything in the game. Here though, I'm pretty sure I've seen a case where when you reach a particular trigger, it then gives you a set number of turns before the next trigger, rather than that second trigger being set come what may for say turn 10 of the whole game.

I'm intrigued by the two things you want here: wanting to know the rules underlying the app, knowing what chance there is for particular events, would make a game easier. On the other hand, your desire for the game to react to particular moves would be liable to make a game harder. I guess you want a co-op which can bluff and sucker punch, but where you can work out the probabilities and prepare for it in a very detailed way? I find it hard to envision such a game without an app which covers so much of the game that the board-game element becomes vestigial.
 
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Johan Anglemark
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Hellicon wrote:
Mattias wrote:
I know this is a personal preference thing.

I simply don't like to play against unknown algorithms that know little about the current tactical situation. I have never come across a coop that I think works as a game. To me they are more like multiplayer solitaire.

I asked the questions I did to understand if this was the same type of game and apparently it is.

I do have MOM1 and like the concept of that, but think there are to many problems with balance and errors for that game to truly shine.

I'm intrigued by the two things you want here: wanting to know the rules underlying the app, knowing what chance there is for particular events, would make a game easier. On the other hand, your desire for the game to react to particular moves would be liable to make a game harder. I guess you want a co-op which can bluff and sucker punch, but where you can work out the probabilities and prepare for it in a very detailed way

Doesn't he simply want a tactical boardgame where you have a chance to to play in an optimal way? Just like you wouldn't want your opponent to pull out secret rules halfway through a game of chess? That is, a tactical boardgame, and not a pseudo-RPG like MoM 2ed.
 
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Ivan Cox
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jophan wrote:
Hellicon wrote:
Mattias wrote:
I know this is a personal preference thing.

I simply don't like to play against unknown algorithms that know little about the current tactical situation. I have never come across a coop that I think works as a game. To me they are more like multiplayer solitaire.

I asked the questions I did to understand if this was the same type of game and apparently it is.

I do have MOM1 and like the concept of that, but think there are to many problems with balance and errors for that game to truly shine.

I'm intrigued by the two things you want here: wanting to know the rules underlying the app, knowing what chance there is for particular events, would make a game easier. On the other hand, your desire for the game to react to particular moves would be liable to make a game harder. I guess you want a co-op which can bluff and sucker punch, but where you can work out the probabilities and prepare for it in a very detailed way

Doesn't he simply want a tactical boardgame where you have a chance to to play in an optimal way? Just like you wouldn't want your opponent to pull out secret rules halfway through a game of chess? That is, a tactical boardgame, and not a pseudo-RPG like MoM 2ed.


Not sure that there are secret rules here. The rules are in the rulebook. What's not included is a list of the specific effects which a particular rule may trigger in the app, but then a complete list of the contents of every card isn't included in any rulebook either. The difference is that it's not possible to go through the cards with a fine-toothed comb to learn all the possible effects, because the cards are in the app.
 
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Johan Anglemark
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Hellicon wrote:
Not sure that there are secret rules here. The rules are in the rulebook. What's not included is a list of the specific effects which a particular rule may trigger in the app, but then a complete list of the contents of every card isn't included in any rulebook either. The difference is that it's not possible to go through the cards with a fine-toothed comb to learn all the possible effects, because the cards are in the app.

Personally I think that the algorithms for when the monsters start to appear more frequently as the scenario progresses, for how the resistance scales with the number of investigators and things like that count as hidden rules.
 
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