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Subject: Orthodox Sect "bans" girls from attending universities rss

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Mutton Chops
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Report here. What peculiar people. But at least it's limited to independent schools, and much as I'd like to see any and all "faith schools" - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever - in the UK shut down, in this case the damage caused by these idiots is confined to their own strange, incestuous little world.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Bloody Muslims!
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Moshe Callen
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Satmar doesn't want anyone going to university and hasn't for many years. If they're reissuing a decree and focusing on women, it tells me that Satmar women are going to university in increasing numbers and that some people are fighting against the inevitable.
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J.D. Hall
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In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.
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David Dearlove
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remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.

But how many lives have been ruined in the process?
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Moshe Callen
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Satmar and other sects are taking on more and more chumrot-- extra stringencies-- and so the mainstream Orthodox world is moving away from them.
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Mutton Chops
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remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.


Oh indeed, it's not a big deal for anyone except the small number of people who might be affected by it, and as whac3 rightly points out, the implication is clearly that girls are ignoring the injunctions and going anyway. I just found it an interesting example of how some groups are still desperately swimming against the tide of religious moribundity in the UK...
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Mike Stiles
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whac3 wrote:
Satmar and other sects are taking on more and more chumrot-- extra stringencies-- and so the mainstream Orthodox world is moving away from them.


That's the pattern with these kinds of movements, regardless of the faith they're associated with.

I admit I haven't done my due diligence on is group yet, but the point you made above is evocative to me -- the control is slipping, so they have to say HEY WAIT REMEMBER!

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Mike Stiles
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mutton_chops wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.


Oh indeed, it's not a big deal for anyone except the small number of people who might be affected by it, and as whac3 rightly points out, the implication is clearly that girls are ignoring the injunctions and going anyway. I just found it an interesting example of how some groups are still desperately swimming against the tide of religious moribundity in the UK...


Extremist groups being extremist is an interesting jump to 'religious moribundity'.
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Bitter and Acerbic Harridan
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DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.

But how many lives have been ruined in the process?

By gay marriage?

By religious freedom?

And how do you measure "ruined"? Some people like this level of religion, others don't.
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Bitter and Acerbic Harridan
remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.

But how many lives have been ruined in the process?

By gay marriage?

By religious freedom?

And how do you measure "ruined"? Some people like this level of religion, others don't.


C'mon. There are a number of stories about the effects of ultra-orthodoxy on women, including abuse, etc. Hell, it's almost impossible for some of them to get a gett.
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J.D. Hall
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she2 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.

But how many lives have been ruined in the process?

By gay marriage?

By religious freedom?

And how do you measure "ruined"? Some people like this level of religion, others don't.


C'mon. There are a number of stories about the effects of ultra-orthodoxy on women, including abuse, etc. Hell, it's almost impossible for some of them to get a gett.

And those should be investigated by secular authorities. But I am loath to impose a set of behaviors on others as long as they don't injure others or themselves. My personal viewpoint of religion is relevant only to me. Others may and do have differing viewpoints and I respect their right to do so, even if I personally and privately thinking they are dumber than a bag of hammers.
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Mutton Chops
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windsagio wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.


Oh indeed, it's not a big deal for anyone except the small number of people who might be affected by it, and as whac3 rightly points out, the implication is clearly that girls are ignoring the injunctions and going anyway. I just found it an interesting example of how some groups are still desperately swimming against the tide of religious moribundity in the UK...


Extremist groups being extremist is an interesting jump to 'religious moribundity'.


Well perhaps it would be, if that's the jump I'd made, but I didn't. There is (demonstrably) a general trend of religious moribundity in the UK. I simply observed that there are various groups futilely trying to militate against that trend. At no point did I state or imply that religion in the UK is moribund because extremist groups are being extreme.
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remorseless1 wrote:
she2 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.

But how many lives have been ruined in the process?

By gay marriage?

By religious freedom?

And how do you measure "ruined"? Some people like this level of religion, others don't.


C'mon. There are a number of stories about the effects of ultra-orthodoxy on women, including abuse, etc. Hell, it's almost impossible for some of them to get a gett.

And those should be investigated by secular authorities. But I am loath to impose a set of behaviors on others as long as they don't injure others or themselves. My personal viewpoint of religion is relevant only to me. Others may and do have differing viewpoints and I respect their right to do so, even if I personally and privately thinking they are dumber than a bag of hammers.


You're mistaken about what I'm saying. I'm hardly talking about shutting down religious groups or what have you. They have freedom of religion. That doesn't mean others shouldn't feel free to criticize the worst of their practices.

Also, your comment about secular authorities is really interesting to me. I think these groups need to start rooting out corruption in their own ranks, instead of covering it up. And greater accessibility to getts for women is by definition only going to change from within.

http://lilith.org/articles/rape-in-satmar-brooklyn/
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J.D. Hall
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she2 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
she2 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.

But how many lives have been ruined in the process?

By gay marriage?

By religious freedom?

And how do you measure "ruined"? Some people like this level of religion, others don't.


C'mon. There are a number of stories about the effects of ultra-orthodoxy on women, including abuse, etc. Hell, it's almost impossible for some of them to get a gett.

And those should be investigated by secular authorities. But I am loath to impose a set of behaviors on others as long as they don't injure others or themselves. My personal viewpoint of religion is relevant only to me. Others may and do have differing viewpoints and I respect their right to do so, even if I personally and privately thinking they are dumber than a bag of hammers.


You're mistaken about what I'm saying. I'm hardly talking about shutting down religious groups or what have you. They have freedom of religion. That doesn't mean others shouldn't feel free to criticize the worst of their practices.

Also, your comment about secular authorities is really interesting to me. I think these groups need to start rooting out corruption in their own ranks, instead of covering it up. And greater accessibility to getts for women is by definition only going to change from within.

http://lilith.org/articles/rape-in-satmar-brooklyn/

I wasn't disagreeing, but I think as an officer of the court you would agree dealing with religious issues in a secular fashion requires precision -- go after the unlawful behavior, not the admittedly stupid belief system. But this is America -- everything is open to criticism and public comment.

And I would agree that these religious groups need to be more self-policing, at least in theory, but given the massive altar boy rape scandal in the Roman Catholic Church, I have little, ahem, faith in religious organizations being able to correct crimes and misdemeanors committed by their clergy and parishioners in the context of their religious practices.
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Lynette
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she2 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.

But how many lives have been ruined in the process?

By gay marriage?

By religious freedom?

And how do you measure "ruined"? Some people like this level of religion, others don't.


C'mon. There are a number of stories about the effects of ultra-orthodoxy on women, including abuse, etc. Hell, it's almost impossible for some of them to get a gett.


Yes but there are a lot of lives "ruined" by secular lifestyles which are not likely to be ruined in other ways in more conservative society. For example not a whole lot of practicing Mormon alcoholics and/or drug addicts. And alcohol/drug abuse correlates to high levels of various kinds of relationship abuse.

Additionally I doubt there is any more actual abuse of women within these societies than there is percentage-wise in the population at large. It just tends to look different from the outside and therefore seem worse to those of us not within these communities.

My agnostic/atheist alcoholic Stepfather beat the shit out of my mother on average once or twice a year. The religion scorning alcoholic agnostic/atheist who lived across the street beat the shit out of his also non-religious wife about every other month, and they didn't even have kids and she brought in more money than he did.

When all is said and done, in the USA a woman who is unhappy in any orthodox religion or sub-society is legally free to choose to leave it. There are even communities ready to welcome them and help them make transitions in most cases. If they don't leave than apparently they have reasons they think are worth staying. And not getting a Gett makes no difference in the secular world anymore than not getting and annulment affects Catholics who want to remarry.

There are lots of reasons why people (adults) stay in abusive relationships. Ultimately I think religion is rarely the actual overriding reason.

 
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Meerkat wrote:
she2 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.

But how many lives have been ruined in the process?

By gay marriage?

By religious freedom?

And how do you measure "ruined"? Some people like this level of religion, others don't.


C'mon. There are a number of stories about the effects of ultra-orthodoxy on women, including abuse, etc. Hell, it's almost impossible for some of them to get a gett.


Yes but there are a lot of lives "ruined" by secular lifestyles which are not likely to be ruined in other ways in more conservative society. For example not a whole lot of practicing Mormon alcoholics and/or drug addicts. And alcohol/drug abuse correlates to high levels of various kinds of relationship abuse.

Additionally I doubt there is any more actual abuse of women within these societies than there is percentage-wise in the population at large. It just tends to look different from the outside and therefore seem worse to those of us not within these communities.

My agnostic/atheist alcoholic Stepfather beat the shit out of my mother on average once or twice a year. The religion scorning alcoholic agnostic/atheist who lived across the street beat the shit out of his also non-religious wife about every other month, and they didn't even have kids and she brought in more money than he did.

When all is said and done, in the USA a woman who is unhappy in any orthodox religion or sub-society is legally free to choose to leave it. There are even communities ready to welcome them and help them make transitions in most cases. If they don't leave than apparently they have reasons they think are worth staying. And not getting a Gett makes no difference in the secular world anymore than not getting and annulment affects Catholics who want to remarry.

There are lots of reasons why people (adults) stay in abusive relationships. Ultimately I think religion is rarely the actual overriding reason.



Did you read my second and third comments at all or did you immediately want to address a strawman of my first comment?

You are showing as well that you don't know much about ultra-orthodox sects like the one in the OP which is subset of ultra-ordodox judaism which is obviously a very tiny subset of judaism itself. I suggest you read up on getts and the agunah. Your attitude towards this is callous to say the least. Yes, they can get secular divorces, but as a religious person, I'd think you'd have a bit more sympathy for someone having to make a choice of not ever getting a religious divorce and ending up shunned by their family and friends for life if they leave.

I'll add that your comparison to Catholics and annulments is laughable. Catholics may officially not want you to get married in a Catholic church without an annulment, but no one's family will shun them for that nor will they be unwelcome in a Church. And in any case, getting an annulment is incredibly easy, Lynette. So additionally, you know very little about Catholicism.

And finally, none of your anecdotes about abuse in atheist families really addresses anything about systemic sexism that is deeply rooted in small sects like Satmar. The pressure is enormous to stay silent about any number of things. Or indeed, to stay married. It's not remotely intellectually honest to compare that to married couples generally.
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James King
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slatersteven wrote:
Bloody Muslims!

The article is about ultra-Orthodox Jews.


 
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I see you...
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


slatersteven wrote:
Bloody Muslims!

The article is about ultra-Orthodox Jews.




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I mean, if you don't want any more Lynettes or Sues running around, ban women from universities. It's about time. They're already too smart even before they got the extra education!

To the actual point of the article, I think it's cool to ban things when you're a religious leader, but you probably shouldn't expect people who like the things you're banning to follow you down that path... instead, you should expect them to assess the situation and leave because you're a controlling piece of crap.

This is of course different from the religion actually including such a ban in its 'source documents.' I mean, when you sign up for Christianity, you're kind of taking the Bible with you there.

There's a difference between an extra-religious ban made by people in order to help you keep the original law and the actual original law.
 
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James King
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Meerkat wrote:
she2 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
In the US we have the Amish, as well as ultra-Orothodox Jews, strict observance Muslims, the Mormons, and a variety of, er, "interesting" Christian sects that all run schools. Just as the legalization of gay marriage did not bring down the Republic, we've managed to survive private religious schools.

Meh.

But how many lives have been ruined in the process?

By gay marriage?

By religious freedom?

And how do you measure "ruined"? Some people like this level of religion, others don't.

C'mon. There are a number of stories about the effects of ultra-orthodoxy on women, including abuse, etc. Hell, it's almost impossible for some of them to get a gett.

Yes but there are a lot of lives "ruined" by secular lifestyles which are not likely to be ruined in other ways in more conservative society.

Please define what you yourself mean by "secular lifestyles" in clear, credible, and unambiguous terms.

After all, there is an argument that some have made that one can lead a secular lifestyle that's far more balanced and healthier than a religious one.

In his winning debate.org post, Zerglingleader wrote:

A Secular Lifestyle Is Superior And Often More Genuinely Moral Than A Religious One

As an atheist living in America, I am often presented with many questions: Where do you get your morals? Aren't you sad that you won't go to heaven? Are you mad at god? Don't you wish you could believe?

I've heard the last question even from fellow Atheists. Quite frankly, no. I am completely satisfied as a non-religious individual and am infinitely more happy now then I was as a Christian growing up. For this debate, I would prefer Christianity to be discussed, as that is the faith I have left, but I suppose any religion will do. I hope that through my arguments it will become clear that a Secular, atheistic lifestyle is superior in most every way to that of religious belief....

I would like to begin with providing some benefits to a secular life that, overall wouldn't be present in a religious lifestyle. My opponent my refute these or present benefits for their own side.

1. Leading a secular lifestyle frees you from prejudgment.

It is true that, specifically the Bible, but most religious texts are full of opinions about a variety of social and political issues. Christianity specifically condemns homosexuality, non-believers, and sex. As an atheist, I have the freedom to decide for myself where I stand on these issues. I realize that there are religious people of all different opinions, but I have no template. I choose what I believe to be moral based on observation and critical analysis. For example, I believe that the homosexual community should have every last right that we do. I believe this not because a text tells me so, but because I see them as fellow human beings. I don't condone or condemn any race, group, or idea because of anything any group of pre-existing rules say. My opinions are organic and subject to change, a quality I believe is utterly crucial for moral decision making in an ever changing world, as well as a quality that utterly conflicts with religious belief.


2. My actions are led by logic, not religious texts or emotions.

I believe logical thinking and skepticism to be the two most important qualities to a social animal such as the human being. If the Bible tells me that I shouldn't have sex before marriage, and even then so, only specifically for procreation, my logical mind tells me that this is a poor way to go about finding a mate. So long as the two parties use contraceptives, consent to the sex, and are not hurting anyone with their actions, I think it is a bit silly to believe that these people are dirty sinners for enjoying what is undeniably one of the most pleasurable acts there is. Another point is, people can be dishonest. Not to say that one should never trust anyone, but a filter of skepticism can be helpful in not being mislead.


3. I am lifted of a burden of what is, in my opinion, unwarranted guilt.

This is one that pertains pretty well to Christianity. I believe that so long as you are not harming anyone with your actions, what you do with your own body and your own life is your freedom, and your decision. In religion there are copious amounts of things to feel guilty for. One of the most heinous of these would be the concept of thought-crime. The idea that I could be punished for thinking something, Merely thinking, without acting upon it, is ludicrous to me. This means I do not have to scrutinize my mind, or feel bad about feeling natural feelings of lust towards an attractive individual, or anger towards a person who has wronged me. My thoughts effect no-one but me, and I feel no remorse for holding them.



Meerkat wrote:
For example, not a whole lot of practicing Mormon alcoholics and/or drug addicts. And alcohol/drug abuse correlates to high levels of various kinds of relationship abuse.

But according to the most recent statistics, there apparently are plenty of paid-pornography addicts in Utah as evidenced by this fairly recent commercial by Brigham Young University against masturbation.






Meerkat wrote:
Additionally, I doubt there is any more actual abuse of women within these societies than there is percentage-wise in the population at large. It just tends to look different from the outside and therefore seem worse to those of us not within these communities.

Since pastors of conservative societies more often than not enable abuse of women by their congregants by not speaking out about it or voicing it to the abusers, you're assuming that just because it remains out of sight and mind of the general public that it must not exist.


Well, think again.


Meerkat wrote:
My agnostic/atheist alcoholic Stepfather beat the shit out of my mother on average once or twice a year. The religion scorning alcoholic agnostic/atheist who lived across the street beat the shit out of his also non-religious wife about every other month, and they didn't even have kids and she brought in more money than he did.

When all is said and done, in the USA a woman who is unhappy in any orthodox religion or sub-society is legally free to choose to leave it. There are even communities ready to welcome them and help them make transitions in most cases. If they don't leave, than apparently they have reasons they think are worth staying. And not getting a Gett makes no difference in the secular world anymore than not getting and annulment affects Catholics who want to remarry.

Your disingenuous and overly simplistic view of things is cringe-inducing enough because you readily assume that things are just hunky-dory fine if you don't readily see evidence of abuse -- even those like pastors who do have more one-on-one time with people and their personal lives should not but do turn a blind eye and deaf ear to reported abuse of women.


Meerkat wrote:
There are lots of reasons why people (adults) stay in abusive relationships. Ultimately I think religion is rarely the actual overriding reason.

It is nonetheless the most directly accessible and applicable social pressure to remain in an abusive relationship because few women want to publicize the fact that they're being abused much less how long they've been abused. Moreover, the threat of being separated from their children also acts as a deterrant to reporting abuse to law-enforcement authorities.


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Lynette
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she2 wrote:

Did you read my second and third comments at all or did you immediately want to address a strawman of my first comment?


No... I addressed the comments as I saw them... this wasn't a multiple page thread yet so I didn't think I needed to make a point of reading everything before replying.

Quote:


You are showing as well that you don't know much about ultra-orthodox sects like the one in the OP which is subset of ultra-ordodox judaism which is obviously a very tiny subset of judaism itself. I suggest you read up on getts and the agunah. Your attitude towards this is callous to say the least. Yes, they can get secular divorces, but as a religious person, I'd think you'd have a bit more sympathy for someone having to make a choice of not ever getting a religious divorce and ending up shunned by their family and friends for life if they leave.



Hummm... I am guessing I know as much or more than you do. A close family friend spent well over a decade trying to get a Gett from her asshole husband and she wasn't even ultra-orthodox and it still mattered to her a great deal.

I have a LOT of sympathy for people in these situations, and I actually KNOW several currently or recently trapped in these kinds of dilemmas. And I also personally know people who have given UP friends, family and church over difficult issues like these. Just like I have a LOT of sympathy for one of the gay men who attends one of the more fundamentalist churches here who he himself believes it is right and just for him to remain celibate and single all his life.

Hell Sue, I go to a fairly fundamentalist church myself and obviously had to hide when it was happening and NEVER speak openly about even my merely fornicating romantic lifestyle, and I surely never EVER mention my years of being poly.

I am WELL aware of the conflicts and strictures that wanting to remain within a strongly religious community can place on the life of anybody who doesn't fit into a very traditional life pattern for any reason.

HOWEVER, that has nothing to do with the reality that remaining in these communities obviously has BENEFITS to those of us who remain in them which make it worth the stress and inner conflict to US.

Which is ultimately my point. Rarely are we genuinely "trapped" in them in our highly secular western world.

I get spun up about situations/nations where women are FORCED by the overwhelming power of entire an cultures weight (that often includes religion) and even government power into traditional roles that often are highly abusive.

But a private religious school in the UK or the USA setting itself up as an island of conservative thought/tradition trying to reinforce its views within its own tiny community while surrounded by a ocean of other possibilities just isn't the same thing.

I don't have to agree with them to recognize that most of the people remaining within those communities do so because they want to.
 
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Bitter and Acerbic Harridan
Meerkat wrote:
she2 wrote:

Did you read my second and third comments at all or did you immediately want to address a strawman of my first comment?


No... I addressed the comments as I saw them... this wasn't a multiple page thread yet so I didn't think I needed to make a point of reading everything before replying.



Sure, that's one way to go if you want to wrangle a strawman. Great job. He seems quite dead now.

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Bitter and Acerbic Harridan
Meerkat wrote:


Hummm... I am guessing I know as much or more than you do. A close family friend spent well over a decade trying to get a Gett from her asshole husband and she wasn't even ultra-orthodox and it still mattered to her a great deal.

I have a LOT of sympathy for people in these situations, and I actually KNOW several currently or recently trapped in these kinds of dilemmas. And I also personally know people who have given UP friends, family and church over difficult issues like these. Just like I have a LOT of sympathy for one of the gay men who attends one of the more fundamentalist churches here who he himself believes it is right and just for him to remain celibate and single all his life.

Hell Sue, I go to a fairly fundamentalist church myself and obviously had to hide when it was happening and NEVER speak openly about even my merely fornicating romantic lifestyle, and I surely never EVER mention my years of being poly.

I am WELL aware of the conflicts and strictures that wanting to remain within a strongly religious community can place on the life of anybody who doesn't fit into a very traditional life pattern for any reason.

HOWEVER, that has nothing to do with the reality that remaining in these communities obviously has BENEFITS to those of us who remain in them which make it worth the stress and inner conflict to US.

Which is ultimately my point. Rarely are we genuinely "trapped" in them in our highly secular western world.

I get spun up about situations/nations where women are FORCED by the overwhelming power of entire an cultures weight (that often includes religion) and even government power into traditional roles that often are highly abusive.

But a private religious school in the UK or the USA setting itself up as an island of conservative thought/tradition trying to reinforce its views within its own tiny community while surrounded by a ocean of other possibilities just isn't the same thing.

I don't have to agree with them to recognize that most of the people remaining within those communities do so because they want to.


Again with the strawman. Let me try and explain what I already said above since you seem to be having a lot of trouble today. I believe that there are certain very sexist and sometimes very painful practices within the most extreme sects out there. That is basically the extent of what I said. You have now interpreted that as me saying that they have no choice at all. That's clearly not what I saying.

I should know better than to talk to you about anything religious. It's so unproductive. I do appreciate the fact that you're at least mildly sympathetic to them even if you don't have much of a grasp on the practices at all.

I think you've decided I want to close religious schools or something. Whatever. Go argue with someone making that point. Maybe the OP.
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