$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 106.89

6,657 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
41.9% of Goal | left

Support:

Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
45 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Through the Ages: A New Story of Civilization» Forums » Strategy

Subject: losing to mike. Anything less would be uncivilized! rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Cody Guindon
Canada
Elliot Lake
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I play with a small group and we have one guy who likes to develop one strategy for a game and use it again and again. For Civ it is this - In age 1 he is using science to upgrade the government, taking drama, michaelangelo, wonder wonder wonder. Never upgrades farms, passes over all military techs even at 1 cost, no urban buildings no blue buildings

Age 3 take movies, chaplan, win.

He's won 4 out of the last 5 like this, sometimes with 2 players sometimes with 3. Once, a few weeks ago, I went full military and declared 3 wars of culture on him. I smashed him in that game even though in age 3 he was scoring 25 culture per turn. I thought this would be enough to get him to respect military in the future but the next games were the same

And HES KILLING US! Last game I had a military advantage of 20, drawing 3 cards a turn. Got to aggress him one time. Every other draw was not aggression or war. Finally got to age 3 where my military was 30+ above him and the had churchhill, he takes ghandi, can't war him (5 red cubes) and he floats to victory.

I love the game but its now seeming pretty boring. I KNOW im playing better than he is, my military is teched my infrastructure is great, im up on science. I can not win! It seems to come down to can I get enough of the military cards I need to win or I just lose, and by a large embarassing margin!

Seems to me I need to declare 2-3 wars on culture along with the 7 up aggressions. In age 2 I cant get any aggressions in because his hand is just full of the anti aggression cards.

What the heck is happening to my hood?! I do not need to or even care if I win but I want a close and interesting game.
Advice?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Conor Hickey
Ireland
Dublin
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
He can't always get all the cards he needs without considerable luck. Hate-draft some of the cards he needs.

If he has Churchill, he can't take Gandhi, you can only pick one leader from each Age.

Seed events that hurt the weakest player, build military and crush him. Won't work every game but should work often enough.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cody Guindon
Canada
Elliot Lake
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
sorry, I had churchill. he had gandhi.

Yeah I try to hate draft when I can but I feel that must be an ineffective use of my actions? I will if it costs 1 and I know he's going to take it. I hate drafted cook last time as thats the go to age II guy for him since he has no problem sacrificing any of all military. I also hate placed fast food since he has so many workers on his mines and farms, since he doesnt upgrade. But again this seems like a huge waste when I shouldnt be THIS far behind.

In this scenario, he has no need for great military, tanks all the green cards, and puts the burdens of drawing lucky onto me

If I draw lucky, I will win/make it close. If I don't (last two games, NO wars could be played by me) i lose. I'd rather be on his side than mine haha.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Kyo
Japan
Suita
Osaka
flag msg tools
Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
badge
Why for this life there's no man smart enough, life's too short for learning every trick and bluff.
mbmbmbmbmb
Sounds like a losing strategy to me. You need to work on your military game.

It is impossible to stick to one strategy in TtA, because a strategy that works very well when the cards come out in the right order will not work at all when they don't.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Kameron
msg tools
I would say that where you are losing is in your choice to upgrade your infrastructure.

If somebody pushes culture that strongly, you need to deal with it THEN. because as the ages go by he will easily be able to catch up (yellow cards get better and people have more actions, so it is 'free economy').

So, if you see somebody ahead of you by enough that would put them more than 30-40 culture by the end of the game, don't both with economy - just build up your military, seed mean events and hit him continually. Eventually, when Age III hits, you should be able to get 20+ culture per turn and he should have lost his edge. One war should be enough.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cody Guindon
Canada
Elliot Lake
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ok, Ill take this advice into consideration
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Karl Bunyan
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
In my opinion, military is slightly weaker (and less swingy) in the new version, so the player who wins will need to develop culture and military. I think it's a better game now that it isn't just a race for Napolean and Air Forces.

So I agree with:

Fizi wrote:
I would say that where you are losing is in your choice to upgrade your infrastructure.

The decision of when to switch from engine to culture is the crucial part of TTA. If you can keep near in points and ahead on military then I think you'll have closer games.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fabrice Essner
France
Nissa
FR
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
How many players during your games ?

I'm playing a friendship tournament with 7 other guys for a while, and we have the same kind of player. ... he never won the tournament. And if he can, sometimes, outscored us, he can finish with less than 50 pts after 2 or 3 wars of culture.

So I'm very surprised about what you say. Surprised but curious ! whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Scheck
United States
Laurel
Maryland
flag msg tools
1. Don’t upgrade your mines unless you can build the Railroad. Get rocks from Yellow cards.
2. Don't worry about producing culture yourself.
3. Prioritize military strength. For example, you can easily get to 10 strength by the end of Age I. Prioritize the Great Wall and you can get much higher.
4. Prioritize early actions: play Warfare and strongly consider Monarchy.
5. Upgrade your food and science infrastructure as you have opportunity, but never at the expense of staying strongest.

6. Never skip your Political Action. Every turn you should either seed an event or play an aggression. Always make sure you hold on to events and aggressions in case you don’t draw any.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Garth Tams
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
tscheck wrote:
1. Don’t upgrade your mines unless you can build the Railroad. Get rocks from Yellow cards.
2. Don't worry about producing culture yourself.
3. Prioritize military strength. For example, you can easily get to 10 strength by the end of Age I. Prioritize the Great Wall and you can get much higher.
4. Prioritize early actions: play Warfare and strongly consider Monarchy.
5. Upgrade your food and science infrastructure as you have opportunity, but never at the expense of staying strongest.

6. Never skip your Political Action. Every turn you should either seed an event or play an aggression. Always make sure you hold on to events and aggressions in case you don’t draw any.


This seems like a random list of how a person can play TTA, certainly not something you absolutely should follow.

In your particular case, early culture lead is stronger with less players. The game is best balanced at 4. With 4 players, per round, there are 3 players stronger than the weakest, meaning 3 players that can take advantage of the weakest by either aggression or events. As the player count decreases, the number of times the weakest can be effected decreases meaning that his culture lead is stronger.

To cope with that, you need to also build culture along with your civ engine. Maintain a higher strength than him, but it only should be raised significantly if you have a few big military aggression cards IN HAND.

Otherwise, maintain a higher advantage and play events, anything affecting the weakest is a must. Withhold from playing events that can only positively players, ie gaining food = to happy faces.

You will need to produce culture earlier than your engine will normally, and he is relying on some key wonders as well. St. Peters for obvious reasons. (You can snipe this one) and Eiffel Tower. (You can snipe this one too) Try get your happy faces from Theology, remember, your strength need not smash him because as you have stated, aggression cards may or may not come. At least with Theology you gain culture.

Try gain science with Printing Press x 2 + Da Vinci. ( 3 science, plus 1(2) if you have philosophy and Library of Alexandra)

Set yourself up to complete 2 end game wonders. The best way to do that is make dudes, and discover techs. Food Chains and First Space Flight are the 2 easiest wonders to take advantage of.

2 Aggression cards you absolutely need to keep - Infiltrate and Spy. These will cripple him.

War over culture is nice, but chances are, unless you have several, it will not work completely. The best war to use is War over Territory. Without upgrading his farms, lets see how good he does after you take 6+ yellow pips. Forcing him to concede with down and dirty wars will work more effectively than a war over culture.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Johan Sporre
Sweden
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Based on your comments about him sacrificing many troops for colonies and never taking military technologies it sounds like his strength is in the single digits for most of the game.

He can only discard a number of cards in defence up to his amount of military actions. There are also only 6 defence cards in each age's military deck. If you prioritize military actions early (Age I government, warfare, Joan of Arc) and have 10+ more military than him it should be no problem wearing him down.

Also try to grab Michelangelo yourself, even if it costs you 2 or 3 actions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cody Guindon
Canada
Elliot Lake
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for all the responses guys, Im gonna go play him agian in a few hours, and crush him under my boot. Let ya know!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Japhet
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
What's your typical military strength when you declare these end-game culture wars?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Scheck
United States
Laurel
Maryland
flag msg tools
Mabuchi wrote:
This seems like a random list of how a person can play TTA, certainly not something you absolutely should follow.

They are the basics for easily beating someone who ignores military.

Quote:
To cope with that, you need to also build culture along with your civ engine. Maintain a higher strength than him, but it only should be raised significantly if you have a few big military aggression cards IN HAND.

No. Since new military cards are drawn only after your turn is over, you need to open the lead with the assumption you will draw an attack. Otherwise, you are putting yourself a turn behind for no good reason.

Quote:
You will need to produce culture earlier than your engine will normally

Certainly not. You need to attack more than you normally would.

Quote:
Set yourself up to complete 2 end game wonders.

Even with an infrastructure strategy, this is very challenging, and your first wonder might be worth only slightly more than a successful Armed Intervention. When you are only concerned with one player, aggressions and wars are by far the most effective way to get culture.

Quote:
War over culture is nice, but chances are, unless you have several, it will not work completely. The best war to use is War over Territory.

When playing versus a culture “strategy”, you should make an effort to play every war you draw, regardless of what it is.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Kyo
Japan
Suita
Osaka
flag msg tools
Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
badge
Why for this life there's no man smart enough, life's too short for learning every trick and bluff.
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, tscheck's advice shouldn't be dismissed so lightly. While I do agree that it isn't absolutely necessary to go full military to beat the guy described by the OP, it is certainly worth practising until you can do it well, and tscheck provides a good checklist of ways to do it.

If you have a decent amount of military actions and game-long military lead against a guy who is completely ignoring military, it is very hard *not* to win.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Garth Tams
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sure I will go full military if the opportunity presents itself, but I cannot ensure that I will get the necessary wars and aggression cards. I can ensure that I set myself up the best leading to the third age though. If you want to pigeon hole yourself in one strategy that is fine, but don't get even a little sad if your military draw is less than stellar.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Scheck
United States
Laurel
Maryland
flag msg tools
Mabuchi wrote:
If you want to pigeon hole yourself in one strategy that is fine

The military strategy wins consistently against other strategies, but naturally becomes riskier with fewer military actions. Five is about my minimum for comfort.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Garth Tams
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
tscheck wrote:
Mabuchi wrote:
If you want to pigeon hole yourself in one strategy that is fine

The military strategy wins consistently against other strategies, but naturally becomes riskier with fewer military actions. Five is about my minimum for comfort.


My perspective might be because I typically play 4 players, sometimes 3, never 2. Your card draw is still max 3. Obviously, you need to play an aggression and still draw cards, or make units. I would be comfortable around 6 MA, but that takes time. 3 or 4 well timed hard hitting aggression actions could be effective, if the rest of your civ is geared for making culture. I think it is less risky than relying on military to win the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge
Switzerland
Lausanne
Vaud
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Mabuchi wrote:
but I cannot ensure that I will get the necessary wars and aggression cards.
Get a third and even a fourth Military Action, so that you can develop your military and still draw 3 Military Cards. Seed the strategic territories, to let you draw even more. I wonder why nobody has not mentioned territories yet: with a good military it will be a cakewalk to earn them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Garth Tams
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Picon wrote:
Mabuchi wrote:
but I cannot ensure that I will get the necessary wars and aggression cards.
Get a third and even a fourth Military Action, so that you can develop your military and still draw 3 Military Cards. Seed the strategic territories, to let you draw even more. I wonder why nobody has not mentioned territories yet: with a good military it will be a cakewalk to earn them.


Ya, I think I mentioned I like 6 MA's when playing aggressive. However, my card draw is still 3, and I am still not guaranteed to draw strategic colonies, or the game clinching wars.
I still know what will come in the card row.
I still know what this player cannot play effectively.
I would rather work with that, than the blind draw that I am hoping to get.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Scheck
United States
Laurel
Maryland
flag msg tools
Lately I play mostly 3p, but I prefer 4p.

The military advantages from attacks and strength events are so powerful that they overwhelm the risks of the blind draw—particularly against someone who makes no effort to maintain parity in strength.

Of course, against players who know to compete militarily, it’s not so simple. In that case the go-to strategy is still science, but other strategies can work too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Bowles
Australia
Tatura
Victoria
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
tscheck wrote:

The military advantages from attacks and strength events are so powerful that they overwhelm the risks of the blind draw—particularly against someone who makes no effort to maintain parity in strength.

If that's true, then how is the OP losing so consistently to a non-militarised player?
(Serious question)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Kyo
Japan
Suita
Osaka
flag msg tools
Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
badge
Why for this life there's no man smart enough, life's too short for learning every trick and bluff.
mbmbmbmbmb
balzi wrote:
tscheck wrote:

The military advantages from attacks and strength events are so powerful that they overwhelm the risks of the blind draw—particularly against someone who makes no effort to maintain parity in strength.

If that's true, then how is the OP losing so consistently to a non-militarised player?
(Serious question)

He's inexperienced, not committing sufficiently to military, not exploiting a military lead correctly... there are many possibilities.

The OP gives an example of not being able to perform aggressions in Age 2 because his opponent holds defence cards, which presumably means he only has a military lead of 12 or less. In that situation you can and should be benefiting from events and wars. Successive aggressions should also be sufficient to push through, unless your lead is only about 4~8. He also mentions an example of being locked out of wars due to only having 5 military actions in age 3. That either doesn't matter because you have 6+ MAs, doesn't matter because you already seriously weakened your opponent in age 2 (and can get by with aggressions in age 3), or doesn't matter if you wait for and grab Gandhi first. If you are unable to achieve any one of those three, you are probably doing something wrong.


Anyway, it is interesting to finally see a thread complaining about a culture push being too strong. It makes a refreshing change from the dozens of threads complaining about military being overwhelmingly dominant!
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Scheck
United States
Laurel
Maryland
flag msg tools
balzi wrote:
If that's true, then how is the OP losing so consistently to a non-militarised player?
(Serious question)

Because he hasn’t been pushing military power (I include strength + military actions) as early and as hard as he should. Military in Age I and Age II is mainly about infrastructure (helping yours and/or hurting your opponents’), which is necessary for slowing culture accumulation down to manageable levels. The military strategy isn’t about using military in Age III, it’s about using military the whole game.

One issue is failing to aggressively open the gap when 1) your opponent isn’t making an effort to stay close and 2) when you aren’t already holding attack cards.

Another issue is not planning to disband your mines. It’s easier than ever to get rocks from yellow cards. It’s not that upgraded mines can’t be strong (they can be), it’s that the advantage your opponent gets from having the extra units is frequently more valuable than the extra rocks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge
Switzerland
Lausanne
Vaud
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Mabuchi wrote:
Ya, I think I mentioned I like 6 MA's when playing aggressive. However, my card draw is still 3, and I am still not guaranteed to draw strategic colonies, or the game clinching wars.
That's a fair argument, has happened to me many times. But you should be drawing something. Barbarians, Border Conflict, Crusades, Foray, Raiders, Reign of Terror, Uncertain Borders, Cold War, Crime Wave, Politics of Strength, Refugees, Terrorism. Take your pick.

If you are not drawing neither any one of these events nor any aggressions/wars/territories when what are you drawing with 3 MAs? Dramas and Operas?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.