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Combat Commander: Pacific» Forums » Rules

Subject: Let's Talk About Melee rss

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Paul Trad

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Because all melees in the Pacific are resolved at the beginning of the Western Ally's(WALLY) turn, plus the existence of Events unique to the Pacific, melee can execute very differently than in Europe.


IMHO CC is mostly about Melee, CCP even moreso. So mastering these concepts is critical to good play, and ultimately victory.


This Melee Execution Procedure (MEP) is the best way to think about Pacific melee, simplify it, and avoid confusion.


((Many EDITS have been made from discussions since first posted.)


This thread is not about strategy, it is about the correct completion of melee in the Pacific. This came from a long FTF discussion on the matter with Dan Huffman. So thank you Dan. But, he may not agree with this MEP or my takeaway conclusions!

________________________________________________________________________

MEP

Melee in the Pacific needs to be approached in four phases. These phases and definitions are critical to understand and follow in sequence, at the beginning of the Wally turn, as follows:


1. HEXES ELIGIBLE

2. HEX SELECTION

3. UNITS INVOLVED

4. MELEE ENDS or MELEE RESOLVED

_______________________________________



Hexes Eligible:


Mark every hex that has units from both sides with a Melee Chit.

Do not place additional Melee Chits after this step.

Melee Chits might be used at other times during either players' turns, as a reminder of the restrictions on those hexes and units, but I prefer not to do this as it confuses hexes to be resolved this turn.


Hex Selection:

The Wally player picks one of the Melee Chit hexes. If that hex has units from both factions, proceed to next step.

If the hex has only one faction present at this time, remove the Melee Chit now.


Units Involved:


If the Wally selected melee hex has units from both factions, all those units are involved. All units involved that are still within the hex at resolution are vulnerable to that outcome.

The IJA plays Ambush Actions first, one at a time.
These are resolved as played.

Now the Wally plays Ambush Actions one at a time.
These are resolved as played.

If all units on either side are destroyed, Melee Ends.

If both sides are still present, their melee values are now compared.

The Japanese plays all Bayonet Actions desired, followed by the Wally player.

The player with the larger value places the Firepower chit on her side of the track by the greater amount. It can be on zero of course.

Once this is calculated, this starting base does not change, regardless of units gaining/losing melee value thru Trigger events and deck/Time caused Reinforcements.

The IJA player now rolls and resolves any Trigger.

If units are no longer in the melee hex due to the IJA Trigger, Melee Ends. Otherwise, move the Firepower total chit toward the IJA side by the value of the roll.

Then the Wally player rolls and resolves their Trigger.

Adjust the melee total toward the Wally side by the value of the roll, unless all units of one side are no longer in the melee hex.

NOTE: Triggers always resolve before the roll is applied - ALWAYS.

Review: When none of the units activated for the current Melee chit cohabitate with units of the opponent in this melee chit hex being resolved, the Melee Ends without a resolution. Ignore the Firepower chit total. No Quarter cannot be played because nobody won this unresolved Melee.

...Melee Resolves:

After both sides have rolled and resolved all triggers, resolve the melee; the side with the higher total Wins(or Pillbox/Bunker defenders on a tie). This resolution can only affect units currently in the melee hex chosen. All other units on the board are unaffected. Now REMOVE THE CURRENT MELEE CHIT.

Any units that arrived in the melee hex after Actions were played are unaffected by the current resolution.

____________________________________



If a hex does not have a Melee Chit, and co-mingles enemy units, the new host hex does not receive a melee chit. This hex did not qualify for a Melee Chit in the first step of the MEP.

If a hex has a Melee Chit, and co-mingles because of an earlier melee, all those units will be involved when this melee hex is chosen by the Wally player.

(New units can arrive from Walking Wounded, Reinforcement events, the Time track, etc. etc.)

___________________________________________________________________________


This hopefully helps us understand, discuss and resolve Pacific melee. Please feel welcome to correct this MEP if I got wrong.

This info also applies to CCE for Stalingrad BP.
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Christopher Hill
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Paul,

Nicely detailed write up, however I am not sure of one thing. You wrote:

"If the Wally selected Chit-hex has units from both factions, all those units are Activated for Melee and are vulnerable to this melee outcome.

The IJA plays melee actions first, one at a time.

These are resolved as played and, if all Wally units die, Melee Ends.

Now the surviving Wally force plays actions one at a time."


If the IJA player plays ambush actions to eliminate the allied player units, the melee doesn't immediately end. The allied player can still play his own ambush actions as well, whether he has surviving units or not.

This may be me just being confused by your presentation and I apologize if I mis-read it.
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Paul Trad

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I wrote this from memory of the rules, being away from home a few days.

I also may want to plead temporary insanity on this.

Will reread the rules in a couple hours, then delete, edit and likely deny.
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Dan Huffman
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Gunderian007 wrote:
Because all melees in the Pacific are resolved at the beginning of the Western Ally's(WALLY) turn, plus the existence of Events unique to the Pacific, melee can execute very differently than in Europe.

....

Check again for cohabitation of activated units; if there is at least one of each side anywhere on the board in cohabitation, modify the melee total toward the Wally side by the value of the roll.

NOTE: Triggers always resolve before the roll is applied. As in ALWAYS.

Review:When none of the units activated for the current Melee chit cohabitate with units of the opponent currently activated for THIS melee chit, the Melee Ends without a resolution. Ignore the Firepower chit total. The No Quarter Action cannot be played because nobody won this unresolved Melee.

There can be cases where units activated for the current melee scatter into other hexes(Examples: Blaze, Low Crawl, Stealth). If they end up in a hex with one of their original activated enemies, the melee total comparison applies to all hexes cohabitated by these melee-active units.

...
All adjustments to unit position from a Blaze happen simultaneously, but sequentially. Melee does not end because IJA units evacuate first.


...Melee Resolves:

After both sides have rolled and resolved all triggers, resolve the melee and the side with the higher total Wins for the legal play of No Quarter(or Pillbox/Bunker defenders on a tie). This resolution can only affect units currently melee-activated, although they might now cohabitate in several hexes. All other units on the board are unaffected. Now REMOVE THE CURRENT MELEE CHIT.
____________________________________

There are other possibilities, from other events.

If a hex does not have a Melee Chit, and co-mingles its currently inactive units with another melee's active units, the new host hex does not receive a melee chit. This hex did not qualify for a Melee Chit in the first step of the MEP.

Also

If a hex already has a Melee Chit, and then co-mingles with an earlier melee's units, two things need to be considered:

1. A prior melee execution scatters units into this hex. In this case, those units already fighting may die from their current melee if both factions have active units arrive.

(New units also arrive from Walking Wounded, Reinforcement events and the Time track, etc.)

2. If 'new visitors' survive the previous melee, they will be part of the melee execution of this already chitted hex when it is selected to resolve(because the hex was marked in the first step of the MEP). It does not matter that units arrived after the Hex Eligible step is over.

REPEAT: Units that arrive into a hex without a Melee chit will not get a chit, and this is why they will not resolve until the next WALLY turn begins. This is why I say that Melee chits probably should NOT be used outside of the MEP, unless you need them as a reminder.

___________________________________________________________________________


This hopefully helps all of us understand, discuss and resolve Pacific melee. Please feel welcome to correct this MEP if I got wrong.

This info also applies to CCE for Stalingrad BP.


19.2.2 Melee Roll wrote:

The Japanese player adds his Melee FP to a die roll to arrive at his “Melee Total”. Then the Allied player adds his Melee FP to a die roll to arrive at his Melee Total.

The rolls – while ostensibly simultaneous – are staggered in order to facilitate triggers and possible use of the Initiative after the first roll. Also note that both player’s Melee FPs are locked in just prior to the Japanese Melee roll, even if a trigger during that roll alters the composition of one or both sides.


If, due to a trigger during a Melee roll, one or both sides have no units remaining in the hex, the melee ends with no further effect.


RED highlights are sections of your statement with which I disagree.
YELLOW highlights are the elipses that represent your text that I removed for space's sake.
GREEN highlights are sections that are important to note when weird stuff happens (i.e. events).

As you see in the last sentence of Rule 19.2.2 ... Once the units are no longer in the hex, the melee ends. There is no "activation" of units, which is where I think the confusion is coming from.

Having said that, If a Blaze forces units into a "Activated Melee Hex" which is to occur this turn, then:
1) If the Melee has already started, the new units DO NOT affect the Melee results and are "safe" from being eliminated; and
2) If the Melee chit is on there (AND I advice against following the first sentence of 19.1 explicitly during the MEP), then new units DO join the ensuing Melee whenever the Wally chooses that hex for resolution.

My complicated example would be if a Blaze hits the first declared of two adjacent Melee hexes, the Japanese player would decide first if he wants his displaced units to join the 2nd Melee or not. Then after that, the Wally can make a more informed choice of the same kind! If one of the units ends up in a different hex, but cohabiting with the enemy, the (I recommend AFTER the MEP is finished) new hex gets a Melee Marker placed onto it.

Hope all that is clear.
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Shane
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This post seems to way-over-complicate what is a simple rule set, relative to other war games. It even seems to add rules that aren't in the rule book. Having "simple" rules means that edge cases can come up, not specifically covered in the rules.

Quote Page 5, top left box, CC: P Rule book:
"... these rules cannot possibly hope to cover the myriad situations that may arise during game play - so in those instances when an odd-ball situation surfaces, a healthy dose of common sense coupled with an existing rule or two should suffice to see you through."
-emphasis via bolded text mine

If one wants or needs to start adding in paragraphs and pages of rules to cover every possible situation, we may as well be playing ASL.
 
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Paul Trad

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Appreciate that.

This is not intended as a rules set or a variant.

It is merely a discussion form.

For me at least
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Shane
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Gunderian007 wrote:
Appreciate that.

This is not intended as a rules set or a variant.

It is merely a discussion form.

For me at least


Fair enough.

I should state that I have not yet actually played a Pacific scenario, although I have the game and a copy of the rules and player aid in front of me. I have however, played several (Europe) Stalingrad BP scenarios, using nearly the same Melee rules as Pacific (sans Bayonets).

Quote:
The IJA plays melee actions first, one at a time.
These are resolved as played.

Now the Wally plays actions one at a time.


You may want to specify AMBUSH actions here, as per the rules and the Melee Procedure on the player aid card. In the case of Pacific, the Japanese player, followed by the Allied player, may play Bayonets action(s) following the Firepower calculations. (Does not apply to Europe: Stalingrad BP)



Quote:
If the Wally selected Chit-hex has units from both factions, all those units are Activated for Melee and are vulnerable to this melee outcome.
...
Check again for cohabitation of activated units; if there is at least one of each side anywhere on the board in cohabitation, modify the melee total toward the Wally side by the value of the roll.
...
There can be cases where units activated for the current melee scatter into other hexes(Examples: Blaze, Low Crawl, Stealth). If they end up in a hex with one of their original activated enemies, the melee total comparison applies to all hexes cohabitated by these melee-active units.
...
This resolution can only affect units currently melee-activated, although they might now cohabitate in several hexes.

Following with the sections that Dan highlighted here. I do not understand the thinking on this at all. If you refer back to 19.1, the rulebook states "Whenever a hex contains units of both sides, immediately place a melee marker in the hex if one is not already present. A melee marker makes the hex it occupies a "melee hex". emphasis mine.

It seems to me that a melee status is per hex, not per units. Units do not activate; their melee status does not follow them to a different hex. If units of both sides end up in the same alternate hex, now you have a second melee hex to deal with separately, after the current one is resolved.
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Shane
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Gunderian007 wrote:
... the existence of Events unique to the Pacific, melee can execute very differently than in Europe.


I haven't studied all the Events as they might pertain to melee, but I'm unconvinced that the melee resolution should be that different from Europe (except of course the resolution at the start of Allies turn).



Gunderian007 wrote:
Hexes Eligible:

Mark every hex that has units from both sides with a Melee Chit.

Do not ever place additional Melee Chits after this step.

Melee Chits might be used at other times during either players' turns, as a reminder of the restrictions on those hexes and units, but I prefer not to do this.

huffman123 wrote:
... I advice against following the first sentence of 19.1 explicitly during the MEP)


Paul and Dan, I'm assuming here that since I have played 0 games of Pacific, that you both have played more than me, possibly a lot more (and it doesn't look like either of you log your plays on BGG**). However, since, for some reason I took an interest in your thread, here are my thoughts, take them or leave them:

I believe the above quoted section may actually be the first cause of your confusion/disagreement. What would happen if you DID follow the first sentence of 19.1 exactly? And, if while resolving a melee hex, units of both sides end up in an alternate hex together (which could include either/both units from the first melee hex or not), mark it. It is still the start of the Allied player's turn, so now you have a second melee hex to resolve when the first one is complete. Simple, actually.


huffman123 wrote:
As you see in the last sentence of Rule 19.2.2 ... Once the units are no longer in the hex, the melee ends. There is no "activation" of units, which is where I think the confusion is coming from.

Agreed. This, combined with your variant use of the Melee markers may be the root of the problem.




**OFF TOPIC OF THIS THREAD: You may wish to log your plays on my personal CC fan site here: http://www.hiddenimages.ca/boardgames/combatcommander/plays/
 
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Paul Trad

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Put aside any thoughts regarding who is welcome to a CC discussion; rest assured all are welcome regardless of past experience.

Of course, anyone that is not serious or (gasp) abusive, might be ignored!
_________________

Here are some reasons I got interested in what seems like an otherwise simple matter, especially for CCP.

* melee hexes that occur after the start of the Wally turn are not resolved until the next beginning of a Wally turn.

* The interesting question of what happens when both sides move the currently resolving units to the same hex.

* The understanding of what happens when units arrive in a hex, and how this differs under various conditions such as:

1) The hex is currently resolving,
2) The hex will resolve after the current melee this turn,
3) The units create a new melee, resolving on the following turn,
4) Why the units arrived... Does this ever matter?

I am sure my thread is not 100% correct.

I have my suspicions that most CCP players are not doing melee correctly.

I am not married to any one outcome, except the right procedure.


!!! Btw !!! I did not know Bayonets are played at a different time than Ambush. Of course this makes sense. Thank you (editing thread now)
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Dan Huffman
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Shane wrote:

huffman123 wrote:
... I advice against following the first sentence of 19.1 explicitly during the MEP)


Paul and Dan, I'm assuming here that since I have played 0 games of Pacific, that you both have played more than me, possibly a lot more (and it doesn't look like either of you log your plays on BGG**). However, since, for some reason I took an interest in your thread, here are my thoughts, take them or leave them:

I believe the above quoted section may actually be the first cause of your confusion/disagreement. What would happen if you DID follow the first sentence of 19.1 exactly? And, if while resolving a melee hex, units of both sides end up in an alternate hex together (which could include either/both units from the first melee hex or not), mark it. It is still the start of the Allied player's turn, so now you have a second melee hex to resolve when the first one is complete. Simple, actually.


Let me disagree slightly and then clarify.

The disagreement:
According to 19.2, the melees ensue in every hex at the beginning of the Allied players turn. This doesn't happen before the beginning of his turn, which is how I think you are interpreting this rule. So Blazes and Stealths (Low Crawls) that occur, occur **after** the Allied player's turn has begun, IMHO. If my assessment is incorrect, then I agree that one should follow 19.1's first sentence explicitly.

19.2 Resolving Melee wrote:

At the beginning of the Allied player’s turn–only; never the Japanese player’s turn – a melee ensues in every melee hex. If there is more than one melee hex, the Allied player selects the order in which they will be resolved, one at a time.


The clarification:
If I have convinced you that the Allied player's turn has begun upon the resolution of Melee hexes, then you should understand why I believe suspending putting Melee markers down per 19.1 would make things confusing. My argument is to put them down immediately after all Melee's have been resolved. This is an Administrative suggestion. Again, if my interpretation of when the Allied turn begins is incorrect, I withdraw my recommendation to temporarily suspend 19.1.

I defer to any of the developers on this matter, of course. :-)
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Paul Trad

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Yes, this is the point exactly. I agree Dan.

To anyone who has played such games as Magic TG, timing and sequence are very specific things. Terms such as 'beginning of turn' and 'end of turn' are more complicated than we initially imagine.

It was mentioned a few posts above that melee in CCE and CCP are 'basically the same,' except for the slight difference that in CCP the resolution is at the beginning of the Wally turn. This is like saying 'Apples and Oranges are the same.' But I would never eat orange peels!

Waiting until the beginning of the Wally turn, locking in which hexes are eligible before any melees begin (as a way to draw a line between when a turn begins and when that moment is over), and then completing all those qualified hexes... this is the entire point of this thread.

Of secondary importance is the question of other units arriving and leaving from these hexes. This second and third question confuses the first(sorry), but must be understood at the same time.

And lastly... yes I agree now that units leaving the current melee resolution hex are no longer vulnerable to the melee total.


ORIGINAL THREAD HAS BEEN EDITED
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Shane
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I understand what you are both saying on the topic of the timing. I am proposing an alternate interpretation here.

If you look at the definition of a turn, both in the glossary on page 4: "Turn - One player - the 'active' player - either performing orders or discarding Fate cards.

Or section 12, page 10:
" ... A turn consists of a player choosing to either:
a) perform one or more orders by playing cards from his hand [O20]; or
b) discard any number of Fate cards from his hand (including zero) [O21]."

I may be rules lawyering here, but my interpretation is that until the Wally has either discarded (or announced that he/she is discarding zero cards) or played their first order, it is still "the start" of the Wally turn.

Think of it not as a precise moment in time, like perhaps you would in Magic or Android: Netrunner (I've played a bit of this casually), but rather as a phase (i.e., The "start of turn" phase). So in this case, if another melee hex is created in this current turn, but before the Wally player takes his/her Turn (as described above), then that new melee hex would be resolved this turn.
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Chadwik
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Quote:
Think of it not as a precise moment in time ... but rather as a phase...


This is incorrect. Rule 19.2 sets up a singular triggered condition that the players check for: "are there one or more melees to resolve -- yes/no?"

If no, the Allied player gets on with his turn.

If yes, those triggered melees - and ONLY those triggered melees - occur. Any new melee hexes that are created from this point in time until the end of the next Japanese turn will wait until the start of the next Allied turn to be triggered and thus resolved.
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Shane
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
Think of it not as a precise moment in time ... but rather as a phase...


This is incorrect. Rule 19.2 sets up a singular triggered condition that the players check for: "are there one or more melees to resolve -- yes/no?"

If no, the Allied player gets on with his turn.

If yes, those triggered melees - and ONLY those triggered melees - occur. Any new melee hexes that are created from this point in time until the end of the next Japanese turn will wait until the start of the next Allied turn to be triggered and thus resolved.

Good to have the designer's answer!! Thanks Chad.
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Shane
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Noticed something this weekend that may be worth noting here:

While the melee hexes are resolved at the beginning of the Allied player's turn in Pacific, in Europe Stalingrad BP it's at the start of the Axis player's turn.
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